Episode 3 Are YOU weaponizing Ethics?

This week on Pairing Gone Wrong, we’re talking about weaponizing ethics and the messy reality of people using the Code to intimidate, control, or “win” instead of protect. We break down the difference between actual ethical violations and the workplace drama people love to dress up as one. If you’ve ever heard “that’s unethical” and thought, or maybe you’re just mad, this one’s for you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome everybody to another episode of Paring Gone Wrong. My name is Mathios Bethev.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

And I'm Chelsea Mena.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

And today we're going to be discussing weaponizing ethics.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Ooh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

It's hard out here.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

I'm I'm a little nervous for this topic, I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Why? Are you afraid that people might weaponize ethics against you? Just for trying to deal with reality.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Yeah, it's exactly what I'm afraid of. Um The real question we're gonna go over today is are we using ethics to protect people or are we using it to control people? Um, and this really came up because we saw a conversation and I mentioned it to you that you know I saw somebody post on like Facebook, which is why I think there's a lot of anonymous posts.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Interesting. Talking reckless because their face ain't there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Like, you know, like Twitter fingers, yeah. They're just popping off um anonymously. But I do think a lot of people also go anonymous because they're afraid of people weaponizing ethics against them. Like they're very fair, sure. A very genuine question as a human, and then they're afraid of how everyone's going to respond. So it's better to just be anonymous so then no one can report you or come for you. Um, I think that's really where that I I really, really, really 100% believe that's where the anonymous thing comes from. It's like people are just so scared.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah. Which isn't fair because it's like if we're asking each other these questions and we're trying to get a real answer from our colleagues or other members of the same profession without getting, I don't know, confused or or um, I don't want to say manipulated, but you know, like educators may look at it a certain way, or uh administrators for a school district may look at it a certain way. So we're coming to people who are in our same field, who have experience with the same insurances, they're bound by the same laws, we're all bound by the same body. So we're trying to come to a an answer as a community. When we snap at each other in that way, when someone's genuinely trying to figure something out without putting out their own philosophy or their stances, I don't think it's as productive as I would wish that it would be.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, absolutely. And it really isn't productive, and we've seen it like the other day when that lady came for both of us, and we were like, Man, yeah, I don't even want to say her name because she be tripping.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

I thought she was a robot, but she's not. But maybe I'll post screenshots of the crazy things that she starts saying just so that you know I mean, but yeah, what did she accuse us of? She said, obviously, the new BCBAs are responsible for all of the fraud that's going on because the fraud and the failure, and and the way she worded it was it's simple math. And I'm sorry that I don't have a degree, but I'm pretty sure you also don't have a degree in math, and unless you're gonna start using commutative graphs and breaking down abelian groups and all this other shit. Excuse my language. I didn't want to hear that from her. I thought that was inappropriate, but anyway, that wasn't fair.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

She's talking outside of her scope, you know what I mean? Like unethical.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah. Someone get her name and reformer. Oh, so that's how it happens. Got it.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

That's how you weaponize ethics.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

I take back everything. I think I'm okay with it now, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Um, and which is why she didn't get reported. We weren't gonna weaponize ethics either. She was talking real crazy, and she was like almost like we didn't have any experience. And I was like, baby girl. Yeah, baby girl.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

I know I just renewed my license for the first time, you know. But maybe I lagged. Maybe I did have experience, and the task list kept changing on me because I was lagging to take my test. Yeah, maybe I had you know, maybe I've been around for 10 years too, like her. But that was hurtful.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

That was that was crazy. I was like, but then at low, he was like, You're calling me young. You think I'm young? Stop it.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Perspective, dude.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I was like, at first I was a little annoyed with her, but then I was like, you know what? No, you're I will take my young ass over here.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

You're right. I was blinded by my ego. I should have seen it for the truth that she was spitting, because that's true.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Loki called us young, so good for her.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

You think I'm young?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

You think I'm young? Like that was how I felt. Like I was, oh my god, you think I'm a baby?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

That is lit. Period. I love her.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

I I actually I don't have a beef of her anymore.

unknown 4:19

I'm thankful.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

You know, you have to open yourself up to correction from your elders. So I'm so happy she came for us. That's lit.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Period.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

That's lit.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Thank you to her for calling me young because now I realize I'm young.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

You're right. She's right. She's right about everything.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

I'm a youngin', and it's my fault everyone failed. It's my fault.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

It'd be like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

You know, sometimes you gotta take accountability. That's real.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Because somehow I oversee the whole TV board. Yeah, no, all 21,000 uh exam takers last year.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, I I interacted with all of them.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

And it was my fault.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

You're very active on social media. I I respect your hustle.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yeah, you see me out here. So whoever you were, I forgot your name, but you're right, girl.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

You're right.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Period. I'll go and put a little hand clap emoji under your thing. That's real. When you talk crazy.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

You're right. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

No, you know, but again, I didn't weaponize ethics. Of course. Because she was talking out of her scope, and I could have, but I didn't. Um it's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Because we're better, obviously. Obviously.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

It's so funny because we could have been crazy.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

She don't know me.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Nah, see, I don't know what online program she graduated from, but my online program did not teach me to start acting like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Absolutely not. On a professional platform.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Nah, no way. I'm on my best behavior up there, tripping.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Not on a professional platform.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Hey, she's lucky I ain't read that at three o'clock in the morning when I usually be when I usually be responding. You feel me?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

If anyone has Matthews on LinkedIn, his 3 a.m. posts are like gold. Like he be dropping bombs, and you're just you're like, wow, so introspective.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

You know, I sit there for four hours after my kids go to bed, just stare at the moon and stars pass by. A little bit of gold.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Techy line the glass, and uh it takes you there.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

The things that come out are just, you know, they're crazy. But they're good stuff, and it's how we end up here to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

This is why. This is why.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

So talking about weaponizing ethics, um, it's a real thing. Like, we're not just making this up. This isn't something that like we made up in our head or we're pretending is happening, it's legitimately happening, and we know it is because the board has a written in part of their their ethics policies that they have is a anti-retaliation safeguard. And if weaponizing ethics wasn't happening, there wouldn't be a need for that safeguard, right? We would be like, hey, we're just reporting when we need a report. Um but the board is well aware that people are using it as a weapon, which is why they also I think have that first step of like having a conversation yourself. Are you addressing it yourself before you come and like tattletale essentially, right? Like before you go and tell your parents that your brother pushed you, did you tell your brother to keep his hands to himself?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Very fair, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Like, not me, I pushed him back.

unknown 7:26

That part.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I threw the train back at his head when he threw it at mine. You know what I mean? Like that that was me. But there is a way to handle these things professional and and have those conversations, and that's like step one. Now, do you think people are doing that?

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, I wish, you know, I I think that there are fair concerns that people have with things, like recently, over uh the the issues with recommendations that we're seeing across states, people making recommendations that don't quite fit the need of a of a client. And I think even in that one, you could almost argue the opposite direction, where some people may like underutilize something, maybe because we don't have staff or for any number of reasons. We're we're not filling out our recommendations at the way the way they should be. They're not reflecting where a kid's need is at. But no, there's a lot of places where things do come up. The importance of supervision and no dual relationships between supervisors and BCBAs, where you end up having a bunch of people who are gonna be super vulnerable. Their whole future is in the hands of this person, and you know, it doesn't always play out in a positive or appropriate way. So I think there's a lot of places where we have it where it's like, yeah, definitely we we need to talk about this. But then the flip side is let's say when I was a mid-tier supervisor, I made a recommendation for 25 hours, let's say, and then the first feedback I get is is this ethical? That's not a fair question. I have 38 goals that are all based on observations and the battery of assessments that we just used. Yeah, that's where I got the number from, you know what I mean? And honestly, shout out to Rethink. Every time I've ever used their little tool, these brands are 40% higher than whatever I've been saying. As long as we can ethically like put things into perspective or whatever, I'm I'm not uncomfortable using tools, you know. But there is definitely that part where I have to use my own judgment and say yes or no. But when I'm working with a mentor, and that's the first thing that they're using, it's like this isn't an instructional yeah, you didn't even read my report to ask that question. Because if you had done that, then the first question you should have asked if I did put eight hours is why aren't there more if you put 38 goals on the bank?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, or like, is this feasible to be completed in a week? Like that was a better way to approach a situation like that than to say, is this ethical? Um, and that happens a lot. I think people lean on the word ethics to avoid difficult conversations, to avoid training, to avoid having to communicate. There's always like, well, is that ethical? Like, was that an ethical decision? Right. I think that you can ask that question, but again, I always believe like leadership is a journey. So that's a question you ask much later on in somebody's leadership journey. Uh, because they know how to answer me. Like, I will ask my lead BCBAs, is this ethical? And then we can have a real dialogue. But I would not ask my BT. I would not ask my mid-tier, is this ethical if they just started? If they're preparing a test, maybe I'll have a conversation, like, okay, explain to me the ethics behind this, or like, is this ethical? Um, but there's other ways to word that. Like, does this make sense for the family? Like, culturally, does this fit into their lifestyle? Like, those are better questions than just is this ethical? But because you want to avoid pushback, we pull out ethics.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

And people are afraid to argue with ethics. No one wants to argue with ethics, right? A lot of us are like, Oh, you said, Am I ethical? And I don't want to be questioned as unethical, so I'm just gonna say whatever you say. But at the end of the day, like, is the other person ethical? Because I've seen that happen too. There's been a lot of people that will be like, hey, like, I'm I'm also ethical, and then you're over here like, girl, I saw you fraudulently bill. What do you mean? You know, like I saw you over here doing X, Y, and Z. Like, you haven't seen this kid in six months, and you're gonna talk to me about ethics, right? So there is a fine line of an like what is ethical and unethical, but I mean, I'm gonna choose what I think is right. I don't I've ever never really come to a situation where I've been like, oh, I need to call the hotline. Like, I don't know. I I I haven't really hit that situation. I have leaned on my peers, have turned to other BCBAs or like my mentors and been like, hey, I don't know if this is ethical or unethical. This is what I'm thinking. Um, and a lot of times we have the way, like, we know how to make the right decision, but there are some people who need guidance, which is why that hotline exists and there are things to support you, but there are people who are really using it to just control others. And that is the bigger problem, I see.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Agreed, agreed. Because it ends up even cutting them off from developing a good intuition for how these things should be run. Like you were saying, when we're using our ethics to protect ourselves, to protect our clients, and to protect the industry itself, these are all fair concerns. When we're dealing with our behavioral health is very involved in people's lives, we're causing them to change their whole schedule. We're setting up schedules of reinforcement, and and there's certain conditions where we're gonna end up having behaviors occur that maybe wouldn't if someone were just we have a major behavior, we're gonna give access to something that's being asked for instead of going through the process of teaching new ways, appropriate ways of making a request of a request, let's say. So it's like we need to know how to approach those situations in a way that's the least traumatic, in a way that's gonna keep our staff safe, in a way that's gonna put the child's safety above all else. And I mean, I feel like we do as an industry do a really good job when we talk about extinction. We're always talking about alternatives. Yeah, we're always talking about enriching the environment before a conversation like that even comes up, so that there's just other things to do. All that energy can just be.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Shout out to the youngins for using those strategies because you know the oldies weren't using that.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

That's real, too.

unknown 13:21

For real.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

For real. You know, yeah, no, we got hooked up, and I think as a field, like as things continue to develop through time, we're developing our own history. People say all the time we're a young science, we're a young science. Shaughnobes has been occurring for 2,000 years, physics, who knows how long? Philosophy has been going on for a long time, but no one ever understands what anyone's talking about anyway, because they never test nothing. But it's like uh uh this is like we have to build up our intuition in a way that's real, and I think actually at the end of the day, there may be no final answer. We're all gonna have to argue with each other forever, and I think that's good, and I think that's fair because when we talk about a punishment strategy, the first thing people go to is, oh, we're talking shock. But what if I'm talking about you can't use a tablet because you broke three screens? Like, I think that that's a fair response from a parent. Now, do I think that a parent should tell the kid, I am now going to punish you? No, don't say that. But there's a world where when the third screen gets broken, that a fourth one is not procured. Yeah, I think I think that is perfectly fair, and we're not withholding things or we're not removing preferred, none of that. You know what I mean? It's it's a it's a hard world. Some people love to bring up the fact because we're we're talking about these devices being used for entertainment. You know, and this is kind of the difficulty with having this conversation because if we have this with our peers in public, well, what about those that choose it to use it as an AEC device? Well, that's a completely different conversation. Yeah, that doesn't apply.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

That's not what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

You need to buy 45 then. I don't know what to tell you. This is just a reality. Maybe find something sturdier, get an otter box for all this. Yeah. That that might be the way. But if we're talking about my TV that I'm watching sports on, it's like, you know, there's a world where it won't always be available because resources are limited. So we need to learn how to act with things. And anyway, all this to say is I feel like when it comes to the conversation with ethics, we need to have it in a way that I can take it, I can learn from it, I could apply it in the future, and then I can talk about it with my colleagues, with my peers, with other people, so we can continue to progress and have like an understanding of the world that we're all clinicians in.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

And see, that is also like that didn't require someone to report somebody to the ethics board, you know, like that was an appropriate conversation. That's step one of addressing an ethical concern. It also falls on the shoulders of a leader. Are you creating a safe space for your team to feel comfortable to come speak to you about ethical concerns? Because if they don't have that space, you're causing ethical problems. Very fair. Right? Like if I'm a new person in the field and I didn't go through the training I created as a supervisor. Um if I wasn't going through that training and I didn't have a good leader that made me feel safe when I brought my ideas, I may just implement something and be like, forget I'm not gonna talk to them because they make me feel stupid, they make me feel uncomfortable, I'm not gonna go to them. And then I was implementing a punishment procedure without having any type of other alternative, and I was harmful. And then uh we get down to it, and then the time the BCBA comes to check, they're gonna be like, What's wrong with you? You're so unethical. But it was like I never once felt comfortable or safe to have the conversation with you. Um, and so that falls on us too as leaders. You know me, I let's go back to leaders, but it does fall on us as leaders because are we being good leaders and are we creating a safe space for the people around us to be able to feel comfortable bringing their ideas and then allowing us as leaders to navigate them to the right answer. So if you know, like for your example, they have an AAC device, do I just keep letting them break it? Like then if you're new, right? And if you're you're like new to the field and you're not understanding the concept of like we're talking like RBTs, right? Like freshly RBTs or like a fresh mid-tier who hasn't really been in the field that long. They're like, Yeah, just take the device. That that's logical. Like you keep breaking it, I remove it. That is like a logical concept for anyone. Like, ask any parent, even a BCBA parent, right? Like you would be like, you break it, I'm taking it.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

1,000 per billion percent.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

My AB ain't in this house, baby. Like, take that, take that switch and break it. You ain't getting a new one. No, it is what it is. Like there's no universe, no way, right? So I think that there is a place where we play the role in ethics if we are not creating that space for them to feel comfortable to have these conversations and to navigate that conversation to help lead them the right path, understanding, like, hey, that broken device that you keep wanting to take from them is their voice. We can't take it. They're learning. Like, let's come up with other ways to protect it so that they can't break it. Or maybe we have to change whatever system or use something, right? Um, but it's up to us as leaders to navigate them. So when we're mad that people are out here being unethical all the time, there's two types, right? There's people who choose to be unethical, and then there's people who have no idea and know better. And is that an excuse? No, because there's a hotline, you know what I mean? But at the end of the day, like if they're afraid of feedback or they're afraid of their leader, they're not gonna talk to you about it. Which is also vice versa, the wrong thing, because if they feel like you're a crappy leader, maybe they're like, I'm gonna report them.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Yeah, sure, sure. No one ever gets to the crux of the issue, which is we need to figure out how to how to act. And I think we talked about it. We were saying how ethics is here to protect.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

So it's like it's there. I loved how you use the word navigating. How do we navigate this space? Because I think it really is that. I think there really is a terrain. We we we love to graph everything and treat it so geometrically and act like things are a straight line. There's that post people always use, like there's a straight line, what you think progress will be, and then there's a sweeping. I fucking hate it, it makes me cringe so much, but it's just so damn true. It's so real. And and like when I think about this space, it's like there is no direct path, actually. You can't go straight. There's necessarily wandering for any number of reasons. And I feel like when we talk about um MOs and all that stuff going on in the background, I think in a very real way that literally changes the possibility space, it changes that terrain. So we need to know how to ask these kinds of questions. Because kind of reflecting on this whole tablet thing, we're in Southern California, so the demographics out here are are popping. Population demographics are popping out here. In one household, or maybe even, you know, if we if we uh were to fix everything and have it all be the same, there's no guarantee that one family is gonna want us to react to the situation the same as there could be people who are like, I don't care what it takes. There could be a dad who's gonna do DoorDash real quick and get the next thing because it's so important. And that 15% difference of having that screen for that much more time can make the world of difference as it accumulates through through the year. So if I'm with another family who's saying, no, we don't want to do this and these are the reasons, etc. etc., there are worldviews that that people have. So when I'm in their house, I don't want to automatically frame it as if it's actually deprivation. It's like it's just hard. And we have, because in case we do get confused, there are also laws that we have, like regarding negligence and things like that. Yeah. So if they're not hitting those points, if there is no abuse actually happening, there is no negligence. We could still have means of communicating and we're saying no, or we have other ways of keeping safe when we're saying yes, and these things are breaking because we don't want people to cut their fingers on screens or whatever. There's just a lot of ways that we have to go through it. There's so much really to think about in each instance. We just have to do our best. And this is why we have to really, I feel like, bang ideas off of each other. It's almost like echolocation. I'm talking about these, you know, there's these changes in terrain. There may be these places that I can't even see. So once you bounce that idea off of it, it's visible to me now, and I can avoid it. Because at the end of the day, I don't just want to move, like I want it to be safe. I want us to have room to deviate.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

What if the program isn't working that well or whatever? We need space to be able to correct things. There's a guy on LinkedIn, I hope I'm getting his name right, Guy Bruce. Uh, he's big on returning us to the principles of engineering in terms of the science of behavior. This is another world where I don't necessarily agree with his takes. I mean, we when we met, we were arguing, and I think we argued on like three, three different threads, but I think he nailed it with that one. Because how do I know which variables are gonna work or not? I mean, ethics is there precisely because there is no predicting.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Otherwise, our task or our test content would have captured everything. It doesn't. It's why we changed the name from task list to test content. It turned out we realized that it it cannot enumerate all the possibilities. So there's a level of interpretation that has to happen, and we're at the head of it. So like we need to be able to really work together so we can get it right and keep people, I don't know, safe or I don't know. We want people to thrive. Like that's the point. It's not just about arguing. At the end of the day, the kids are the focus.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

So correct. But us BCBAs love to argue. Listen, we live for an argument.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Should have been lawyers the way we love to argue with each other.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I don't know if I can find a five test.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Say the same things. Like how are we arguing with each other, but we're both saying the same things. It happens all the time. Yeah. But it it is, and it I think it does like a lot of that goes back to like, am I creating a safe community? So people are posting anonymously because they're afraid of ethics being weaponized towards them. Yeah. Then like let's just take it back to that lady on LinkedIn. Would I want to continue a conversation with someone who's already attacking my character in the first sentence of what we were talking about? Like, I don't wanna, I don't want to have a conversation with you. And I wouldn't want to because now I'm afraid that anything I say you're going to weaponize.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

And you're already accusing me like it's simple math. So now you're trying to call me dumb, right? Don't do that. Then you're out here like the youngins or whatever, the young people, like I'm I'm the person that just caused everything. Like you're speaking in like generalities, like you don't need to speak like that. Yeah. You know, I wasn't coming for your character. Sure. No one came to be disrespectful. We were talking about your data and your opinion. And if you don't want people to talk about your opinion, then don't give an opinion, right? But at the end of the day, we should have been able to have dialogue, appropriate dialogue. But because we couldn't have not we, I can have great dialogue.

unknown 23:44

True.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Very, very true.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

I can have difficult conversations all day, but because she didn't want to have a difficult conversation or whatever she was going through, or maybe she did and she just didn't know how to approach it with us, you know? Um, maybe because we're like funny and sarcastic and she didn't know how to approach it with us, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Also fair. Yeah, because you were like, this is AI. I'll win the argument based on like you want to do character attacks, we could do that. We could go all day. I'll battle rap with you on LinkedIn. I ain't tripping.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

But it like again, like to other people watching that, like a new BCBA who watched that interaction, because you could see everything on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

They're gonna be like, dude, I can't talk to anyone in this field. Yeah, because if they didn't agree with her idea, they're not gonna say something. Yeah, and it's true, like there's plenty of times where I kept my mouth shut because I was like, dude, I'm not here for the attacks, I don't want to have the argument, like I don't want to have the dialogue. If I say what I'm thinking out loud, they're gonna be like, dude, that's unethical. Like, I already know. But the reality is like, it's because I don't have a safe space to speak that way, right? There's some things that are inside thoughts. We've we've established that. But there are conversations to be had to make the field better. That's how we got the field better. But when you are not allowing those conversations as a leader, just as a person in the field, you don't even have to be considered a leader. It doesn't matter your job title, like a person in the field who can't have appropriate dialogue or can't have a difficult conversation. Um, your ego got hurt, so then you wanted to go and hurt someone else by using ethics as a knife. Like, you know, that that's not fair. And I've observed it happen, and I've worked with people who did not make me feel safe and they were my leader. So I wasn't gonna go to them with a an ethical question I had. I was gonna look elsewhere, and maybe the other person else elsewhere didn't have the right answer. Sure. You know, and as you're learning, like we really should, as a community, be okay with accepting people's ethical questions. Now, yeah, when we're talking about ethical questions, like Matthew said, we're not talking about mandatory reporter level stuff. I'm not talking about abuse. Like, let's make it very clear. We know right and wrong. And as soon as something is wrong, do something about it, say something. It's about protecting the child. The child is number one at all times. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like the fine line between mom talked to me today about being frustrated with her husband. Now I'm out here screaming dual relationships, they violated, and we're gonna terminate the family because it's unethical, you know. Like somebody else mentioned like mom falls asleep during like the the session and people were like raging. And for me, I was like, okay, like sure, we don't want that's a that's a like a legal thing, right? It's a liability. Sure, sure. Absolutely. But did we offer mom like a center, maybe a community setting? Did we have a conversation with mom that, like, hey, does she know the expectations that she can't take a nap during sessions? Like, did you do A through Z and all these options before you started screaming that's a violation and terminate them? And people were like, absolutely not, like, I would stop services of meaty, term terminate them, and like, and this person had posted anonymously for the same reason that these people proved their point. They just started like attacking this person, and it was not fair, and they were attacking this mom that you don't even know. Like, you don't know what if she has six kids and she's by herself or her partner just passed away and she's trying to to do all the things for these kids, and maybe she didn't mean to fall asleep. Maybe she sat down and because she hasn't slept in days, she dosed off for 15 minutes. Yeah, but we're not using that side of our brain, we're too busy screaming ethics because we just want to make sure that like we're covering our butts at the end of the day. And sure, I want I'm a business owner, I want to cover my butt at the end of the day, but I also have compassion and empathy. And so my conversation, like my advice was like, hey, I would call a meeting with your BCBA, maybe put service on hold, BCBA, and we sit down, have a conversation about like the expectations during session, and how can we navigate supporting parent through this? Like, we can't have you sleeping during session, but what if we had session at the center and it was drop-off? Then you have at least 30 minutes to come home, take a nap, relax, and then come back and we can do parent training, you could participate in session, or can we do it at a community setting? Maybe we go to the YMCA and we do an hour and a half there, and they're at the school after school program, and that gives you the time to be able to take a break. Is there another maybe they just needed to know that another adult could be present? But like, did we do all those pieces? And I don't even know the answer because the person deleted their post because it was just getting ripped apart.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah, no, so unnecessary. And I mean, thank you for walking us through that right now. Because to me, that what like everything you just did is exactly why we have the ethics code, why we need to be able to keep it at the front of our mind like that, because the moment an issue arises, you do need to do like a triage, let's say. Because we went through that in our in our coursework. So I need to go through, and I mean, this is why we even brought up the checklist earlier. I need to ensure that this isn't negligence in some in some capacity. Once it's not those things, it doesn't mean it's a non-issue. It just means that we're not gonna approach it in a certain way. So, like once we go through trying to analyze each situation, we do get a better feel for what we're actually dealing with. The way they're gonna hop on her head. I mean, just for the record, in case they try to come at us, the answer, real quick, is to cancel the session in the moment. That is the answer. The BT's gonna go home. The next day, the supervisor, if you have those or if you're not in California, I'm sorry. The next day, the BCBA can reach out to the parent and then go over everything Chelsea just said that that we gotta go through. Because on the flip side, it could just be a one-off. People go to Vegas, people dance on Saturdays, you know what I mean? Like, it ain't always like they're trying to take advantage or turn us into babysitters because we're so sensitive about that, you know what I mean? And again, I'm not saying that we should be babysitters, I'm just saying that if a human being falls asleep, I don't know why they fell asleep. So I cannot assume that the reason why they fell asleep is because they think that I'm respite, yeah or because they think that I'm a BCBA. Sometimes people have allergies, so they take Claritin. Like that is it. That is it. And if they had a beer before I got there, I don't know. I don't know, you know what I mean? And I'm not gonna assume. Yeah, now if they pull the beer out in front of me, we're ending services, and I gotta go through that checklist again.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

We have a conversation about you know another parent was in the household.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

All right, so it's not negligence, but per my policy. So this is kind of the idea we're saying that there's multiple layers, there's different levels here. It might not be an ethics issue, but it could be a policy issue. It could be a state law issue or city law issue. Maybe we can't have services at a park for this or that reason. It it's but you know, we want to get to the bottom of it instead of just capping it off at a surface level without having all the details and just so that we could yell at each other and all that.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yeah, and that's what's happening a lot, I think is people are stopping at the surface level, they're not asking questions. Um, and surely, like, yes, there isn't an ethics hotline. So people will be like, well, why don't you just call a hotline? Like, why don't you just you know, and it's like, okay, they're coming to you as a community. Yeah, for sure. You know, like we should be a soundboard for each other. We should be able to bounce ideas and have that conversation, like you said. And sometimes I don't want to call the freaking hotline. Like, I that's just not what I want to do. And and like I said, I haven't had to be in a situation where I feel like I needed to call the hotline. There are times where I've seen stuff on the hotline, I was like, I don't fully agree with that decision. Like that just as a human, like my morals, my values, I actually think that that's too harsh of a line. You know, but at the end of the day, like I have to follow what what stands. But there have been times where I'll I'll read something, I'll be like, I really just that wasn't very human. That wasn't very kind, wasn't very compassionate, wasn't very empathetic. And if you're gonna come in here and talk to me about act, then you surely better be compassionate, empathetic. That part. You should be asking questions, you should be having these conversations. To be in someone's home, you need to build rapport. And sometimes they're going to have a situation, maybe they navigate off the topic, and you're gonna have to just bring them back. That's a skill we need to teach each other. Like, that is a soft skill we need to learn. That is not an ethics violation of like now we have all these boundaries and all these things, right? And and that that kind of leads us back to like, I have seen people who will use that when they have a personal grudge against someone, sure, and they'll be like, they're lovely emails with so many words, and then they like to talk about like ethics, right? And it it just it's so much because it's like you're just mad because I called you out because your report was late. You're just mad because I held you accountable to this thing that you said you were going to complete, and now all of a sudden we're violating ethics with your case, so all these things, and it's like, girl, now I gotta go back and I gotta do all this, or or guy, because I'm I'm making this up, but whoever it is, yeah, now I have to go back and I have to do all this. I'm a what I'm gonna do, because I I love to do this, I'm gonna go get the receipts. I'm gonna go and get the information and be like, okay, tell me where I violated. Because I'll argue with you all day. I'll pull up all the things and I'll be like, here's this and this, here's this and this, here's the information, here's all the things. Please let me know when ethics are violated. Or why did you wait till now to say that you need to have a conversation about violated ethics on a topic that you're talking about a year ago? It it's only because you're now mad. So if your feelings are hurt, that's not a reason to use ethics on someone.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

No, absolutely. I mean, you know, one thing I've seen, like like with your point when it comes to the caseload, I in from what I've seen, I've been around the block now, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Not around the block.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

You know, like you know, we just really out here. You've been in the streets, we are really out here, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

I mean, and how many how many companies got under your bill now?

SPEAKER_02 33:46

As a VCVA, not not as many as a super not as many as a soup, not as many as a mid-tier. Those are those were wild, wild times.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Those are the days though. Yeah, I loved mid-tier Matthews. Mid-tier Matthews? You were wild in both.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

No, I was.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

I was now you're working at six companies at one time.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Nah, it was, you know, pandemic. We had all the cancellations, didn't have the hours.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

That's why I loved your trackers. Yeah, no, your trackers taught me everything. I was like, no, no, I'm actually only working 38 hours a week. Literally, I'm trying to do more. I just can't, you know, but I'm not underserving anyone. Yeah. But exactly to that point, there are points where when it comes to managing your caseload, let's say, it's a personal organization issue. Now, sometimes you don't match the organization that you're at. So if they're at the higher level of the caseloads, let's say, but also most of the authors that you have are 10 hours a week, then it's it's not fair for you to go online and say, I have 13 cases, let's say, because there's another person with seven and they're working the exact same amount of hours as you just because of how how everything's hours are structured. Exactly. How everything ends up breaking down. So it's like one of the things that I've seen, and I've been I've been transparent about this with any team that I've been on, case starts. So every company's gonna have a different policy, but they will tell you hey, if you get an email, we're gonna need you to start it in three days. No one's making you start it in less than 24 hours, period. Also, most of the time they're asking. So let's just say on we have a case start scheduled for Wednesday, but on Tuesday night you get a phone call from your BT and there was physical aggression that ended up in an injury. I'm gonna be there on Wednesday instead. I'm gonna have to talk with my team, or maybe we can figure out some kind of comfort. Like there's there's all kinds of options, and again, it comes back to what are the protocols that we're using when we're in a situation where the answer is not that clear to us. So for me, it's like, hey, we cannot push a case start to the next week. This is per policy. This isn't per my vibe. Whatever our policy is, that's what I'm running with. Yeah. So you have to clarify for people because you know, at the companies that we've been involved in, there's no such thing as you moved your schedule around for this case start, and then I'm gonna email you at the end of that month saying, hey, you only saw this person four times. Yeah. Of course you saw them only four times. I made you take off four of their freaking, I'm learning. You're doing four of their freaking sessions in order to be somewhere else where where I needed you. So then to hold you accountable for that, it doesn't even make sense. No, you're hitting your hours, you're hitting your billables, you're doing all the things that's completely trackable. I feel like though, there's two worlds that people are kind of walking in. So because of our bad experiences now, when we're in the middle of that and someone kind of brings some of this up, we're responding to an old place. Yeah. Instead of responding to the situation as it is, because if I'm aware of all these challenges, I can just, like you were saying, you need a safe space. So I could tell my lead BCBA, I can tell my clinical director, and they will make the necessary accommodations. My lead BCBA has way more access to mid-tiers than I do, because I only oversee my team. They oversee all of us and all of our teams. So they can then send the message and reach out. So there's always a solution. And like I said, back, I loved how you said navigating. I'm gonna hold that with me for the rest of my life. But it's like that's what I mean by that navigate or that traversal with the valleys and I don't know who's available, all these things might change. But as long as we're still taking a step towards our goal, we're still being ethical, we're following all our policies, following state requirements, including uh Medicare requirements and whatever Managed Health Network is overseeing, like we're in line with everything. If there's some gray area or something we don't like, like you might not like it that I'm telling your ass you're gonna be somewhere on Wednesday when you did your whole schedule for the month.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

No, like that's unethical.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Yeah, you know, I told you to have your schedule by August 25th for September. Now in September, I'm changing your shit. Rightfully frustrated. And maybe you don't like it, and maybe there's a way we can work through it. But it also, like we were saying, maybe we're not a match. Because for us, when we're when we're trying to get a case started, it's not about maximizing the hours, it's about getting the services. We have the BT. How often does that happen? How often do you have a BT in a family lined up for a date? You want to push that to another date? Absolutely not. Do you know what you're even saying right now?

SPEAKER_00 38:09

That's unethical. This kid's gonna go another week without service.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

You know, if you want to argue ethics, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Exactly, exactly. Now, at the end of the day, like for me, sometimes I wonder, well, who does it actually fall on? Because let's just say, like you're saying right now, in that situation where what if the supervisor is really at capacity? Yeah, well, then it does fall on us as the lead BCBAs, or it will fall on admin to understand. This is why certain places only want BCBAs to own companies, which I don't think is gonna work. But I get it, because then we got things like that. And now, if you do do some weird ass shit like that, I can tell you directly hey, you're asking me to be at nine places at a time with a caseload that is not actually manageable. Here are the steps that I took to try to blah blah blah. But again, I think we just need to be in this space where we can really bump heads, we need to be confrontational with each other, but ultimately it's for the good. Iron sharpens iron. We want to make each other sharper. That is not a nice process. We want to purify each other like gold. We go into the furnace, you don't do it with affirmations and fun conversations. Yeah, nah. Vibes only take you to Vegas. The moon.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

You only get so far.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah, the moon. You need physics for that, man.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Yeah. And it's true, like you should have. Okay, so five dysfunctions of a team. If you haven't read the book, read the book. That part. Um literally my favorite book. It's like written like a drama. Like, I love the team. It's so good.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

That part, that part.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Um, it's so good, but you should have healthy conflict. It's like part of the things that your team should have. Your team should be able to address things with each other, which is what the board is saying. Sure. You should be able to address things with each other. When you escalate, is when obviously it's not getting fixed or addressed, right? Which is the same thing at work. Someone, you give someone feedback, they don't respond to your feedback. You give them feedback again, they're not responsive. You try chaining, doing all the things, whatever it is, it doesn't work, then you move and you escalate. Now I have to bring it to the supervisor, and now we're going to a pip or whatever the plan is. But there is a like level of escalation. We are not doing that. We're just throwing words at people. We're just like, and you're unethical, I'm reporting you.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

It's on site.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

And it's like, what? We didn't even have a conversation. Um, which is why a lot of ethical, like I was looking it up, and a lot of ethics um claims get denied because they won't even uh document that they had a conversation first. So it'll be like, before I can do anything, you need to have a conversation first.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

You brought it up with that person.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

By then it's either over, you left the company, um, you don't feel like dealing with it anymore, right? Like it's it's like, okay, just forget it. Um, but that's a reason a lot get denied, is like you're supposed to, because even the board says, I I believe the board or or they say something like, We are not investigators, like we're not here to, you know, like you need to give us the information for us to make a decision if this is ethical or unethical, and then we go next steps where they will investigate, right? But they're not here to like ask you a billion questions and like sit down, like give me the information so I can decide yes or no. Right. And so a lot of people aren't doing that because they're so upset, it's their emotions, right? Like we can memorize the ethics, but you can't have a difficult conversation, like that's silly. Have a difficult conversation, address the concern because sometimes the concern is really just your ego. You just can't like eat it. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Get over yourself.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

No, I feel that. I feel that. You know, I feel it's because like it's it's so funny. We have like two, I mean, we probably have like nine philosophies inside of us at all times as a field. But the two that stand out to me the most is this idea of we're studying deterministic systems. And so when we're doing that, we're using it to predict, let's say. The ethics part is for dealing with the parts of the world that cannot be predicted. Yeah. Like it's just there's a new world that that comes up to you. So you need a value system to organize your behavior, to organize what your responses are gonna be to that situation. And some things are so like, I don't even know how to think about this. To take it outside of ABA real quick, these e-bikes that the kids be riding all the time. I was gonna buy some for my sons, and then my father-in-law was down. My wife was like, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Dude, they're so crazy scary.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Now, see, this is out, this is a fair concern.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

I'm on your wife's side.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yeah, yeah, of course you are. I think these are all fair concerns. Now, do I think my child should be riding down the street 35 miles per hour? Well, when you word it like that, no, obviously, which is why for uh our kids, we're gonna make them get licenses. Now, I think in our city it's illegal anyway. So the question's already done. Yeah, so now you can you need a pedal assisted or you know, there's some kind of, but again, this comes back to exactly what we're talking about. There's ways to modify these things, but sometimes you're really in a world that that, you know, when they brought up e-bikes, I thought that's cool. Oh, cool, kids get to go fast. I mean, when I was growing up, the little kids were on the little motorbikes all the time. But again, the people who rode those had so much experience, so it wasn't your common seven or eight-year-old who was doing that. You know, his dad trained him how to ride for real. Now he's on one of these. Whereas they basically democratized going 35 miles per hour.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Anyone can do it.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Yeah, and I can understand from a city's perspective hey, this is a problem. Yeah, if you ask me, do I think it? No, but I'm probably just an idiot, so ignore what I think. I'm just a dad on LinkedIn. I would never post about that at 3 a.m., so it must not be a wise thought of mine, you know what I mean? I might be on your guy's side. Why is everyone rushing in the first place? Why are we teaching our kids to be my teaching to go that fast? Yeah, no, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

But catch me in my golf cart going that fast.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Listen, and again, so much more structure. It can roll over. Your people roll over in those all the time. You're fine.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

You're gonna be fine, and you just push it back up. It's fine.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Yeah, I don't know if it's illegal to drink on those. I don't be drinking and driving. You're right. Moving on. But these are the these are these are like, you know, these are the kinds of issues where it's like, I think when it comes to the e-bike situation, because again, we want to harp on, we're not talking about the clear-cut ethics violations where someone's being hurt or none of that. Safety aside, you know, but there's this world where it's like, I don't know what the answer is. Like going to a trampoline park. I can't just say it's ethical or not ethical. Is it clinically appropriate? So let's just say we can work on waiting in line and cooperative play and responding to eye contact from another. We're not requiring the eye contact. We're saying we're responding to it from another. We're taking that and then responding to a social initiation or something like that. There's ways to kind of validate these things. There are payers who think this is beautiful. And even those organizations will like facilitate it. They'll give us a Saturday or they'll do something like that, you know? But just to look at the place and say, is this ethical or not? I can't answer. But there's something deeper I have to think about with the trampoline park than a playground. And I think this is what the ethics code gives us the capacity to articulate more. Cause when I just look at the thing, I can't, I can't just think it off the top. But I got a playground, why wouldn't I take a kid to a playground? Let him go play Merry Go Round and go play tag real quick. Let him go not take an appropriate turn so that the peers can then respond and give the feedback. Yeah. And they can respond to peer feedback to adjust their behavior. Like these things are all fine. But again, it's just it's that that's the hard part for me when it comes to this ethics stuff. Because it's like, I really want to dig into things. But I never want to play devil's advocate. So there are some ethics conversations where people go too far and like, well, you're never nah, fuck all that. Don't even do that.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Don't say that. Don't do that. Don't keep that as an inside thought.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Yeah, exactly. We don't need that. No one wants to engage.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

We're not trying to dive deep into, you know, in a different world.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

I want surf. We were just talking about that. I want surface level when it comes to that. You know what I mean? Like, just be practical, man. If the situation itself ends up taking us to another place, again, I think that's fine. But I don't think we should be explorers in that way. We're navigators, dog.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

We don't be like, how far can I push the episode? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

No, we have a place that we're trying to reach, where which is where people are living independent, fulfilling lives, they're thriving, they're habilitated, they learned new skills. You know, it's it's all this stuff that all of us get in get involved for this stuff. So it pisses me off when so many of our colleagues are getting turned off or they're not as uh abrasive as you and I, let's say, when when someone's like, that's unethical, fuck you then. That's my response. Pull that shit up right now. How dare you say that too? Show me where you're unethical. That's so that's so mean. But I don't think we need a world where everyone reacts like me.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Yeah, they don't need more of us.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Yeah, exactly. You know, I want to work with more of y'all. You know what I mean? I'm trying to turn to y'all.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

I want to be calm like the rest of you.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

You know what I mean? I'm trying to catch up, man. I'm so far behind.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

I want to live in a space of peace.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

I want that world. I want to be asleep at three like you, man.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

I don't want to be up at 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

just staring at the stars. What the fuck am I doing?

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Dropping bars.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

You're not a rapper anymore, Matthews. Let it go. Yeah. This is so hard.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

But you know, it's okay, Matthews. I think you should pick it back up.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Hey, it's all coming out of me right now, huh? That's lit.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

I think you should pick it back up.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Yeah, thank you for catching that.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

And you should actually make songs about stuff we we talk on the podcast about.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Listen.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Because it'd be funny.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Pairing on wrong, and it's me and a DJ. Yeah. That's lit. That's lit.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

That's what it should be. Um, I again, this isn't to say don't report. Like if you see an ethics violation, report.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

Snitch.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Snitch. They don't get snitches here. Not here. Never that's in the streets. Not here. Not here. Not in the ABA world. Um, but what I am saying is like if you're going to report, do it with integrity. Do it with evidence, do it with the right motive. If it's maybe a mistake, like, but you genuinely had a conversation, your perception was whatever it was, you sent the evidence, it is what it is. As long as your motive was correct when you did it, then that's okay. Kudos to you, you know? Yeah. It's not to say don't report because there are plenty of times where people should have been reported. I have actually had conversations where I was like, I spoke to a funder because I was like, hey, I think this needs to be reported, but this is something that only you have records of. Like I can't do anything about it. And they were like, it's okay. And you're like, what? Noted. That's crazy because we had a conversation and that's a little crazy. But again, like if I don't have evidence, then what am I speaking to? Right. So yeah. I had to take a different approach in how I I address my concern. But there, you know, there's people who just it's the the use of the language with the right, with the wrong motive. That is my concern because there are people who will use it just to say it. They'll they'll use it to hurt other people, they use it to have leverage, to control others. Um, and I've seen it happen. Like I've seen it happen. People try to do it to me as a leader and they're upset because I held them accountable. Um, I've had people who did it because they um did it to other people because they were mad at them, they didn't want to be their friend no more, some real petty stuff, you know. Yeah. Um, I've seen people do it because it was this person was a shitty person, but they didn't do any ethical dang it, you know, like they didn't do an ethical violation.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Just slander them on Instagram with the passive aggressive story.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Like, were they just like a normal person, right? But like I would never go and be like, hey, like you were a shitty leader, so I'm gonna go and report you to the ethics board. Like shitty leadership does not equal an ethical violation. You know, it should.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Let me hold it. Yeah, no, no. No, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

But it it doesn't, right? Like it just doesn't because there's the field doesn't even prepare you to be a leader. So you're gonna run into shitty leaders, and that doesn't mean that it's an ethical violation. Like maybe they just don't know how to approach you in a way that feedback is receptive to you.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

But I'm not gonna go and be like, yeah, they've violated what where.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Sure. Right?

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Like and that's that is more of what we're speaking on is like the things that are being used in a way to control or hurt others. Did that person deserve to be hurt a little bit? But did I but not like that?

SPEAKER_02 50:17

But not like that.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Yeah, no, like not for their career in bread and butter, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:20

And like not their living, though.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Not their living, but also like, you know, God got it.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

You know what though? I yeah, listen. God got it. You speaking my language now.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

I'm that ain't got nothing to do with me. God got it. I just went and said, okay, well, mind my business over here.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

I think that's so fair. You know, even insurance companies believe in God because they're willing to back everything up. Except by acts of God. Listen.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

If I see that on one more damn home insurance policy, I'm gonna lose my mind.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

That is, that is why. I was like, I was like reading it.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

I was like, what do you what? And then they were like, except for acts of God. What does that mean? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 51:03

No, it's real.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Ain't everything an act of God?

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Amen. That's what we've been trying to argue with them, Chelsea, but then they got then they'll be like, you can't talk about that at work.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

You can't talk about God.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

I'll take that though. But see again, maybe maybe not the ethics code if I'm bringing up God at work, but maybe you can't fire me, which I think is very fair. You know what I mean? It's it's yeah, period. Because but dang. But yeah, no, it's uh but God got it. God got it. I love that. I love that. That's how we should approach that. Because, like you were saying, we're getting all in our feelings and angry about something. We want to lash out, we want them to feel something. Well, if they're not doing something that bad that it has to go through that channel, let it go. It's it's uh it's out of your hands, it's not for us to be vengeful.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Correct, it's not for us, it's not, it really ain't. Um, but I think like people really have to understand, like, so when you are trying to decide is this an ethical concern, ask yourself like, is there actual risk of harm? So if you're upset that your BCBA got upset with you because you didn't write your client's report.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

My favorite example, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Can you report your BCBA for that?

SPEAKER_02 52:12

No, absolutely not. Do your shit. How about that?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Do your report because you're actually delaying services for that client. That part.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

So the person, if we were gonna talk exactly documentation ethics, oh man, write your damn reports, you know? Damn, you got you got a brother nervous now.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Um you're like, dang it.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Yeah, no, no. Sonia and Judy, y'all got me. Lloyd, you'll you got me.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

You're like, it's you're gonna you're gonna forgive me, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:37

You got me, you got me.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Um, also, is this within the BACB's jurisdiction? So there are some things that like they don't have control over, they can't make a yes or no decision on. Um you would have to really like decide if that's within their jurisdiction. Like they can't make decisions on I don't know, stealing from the home, right? Like they we don't know, we don't have cameras and someone's been accused, and we don't have evidence like to to prove it. So maybe that person is no longer employed. Um, but at the end of the day, like, do we have enough evidence? Because even in a even at the ethics board, but like in a court of law, like if there's no evidence, they're they're gonna throw it out, right? So there are some things that like their their jurisdiction, you know, can't speak on. Um, do I have direct evidence or only my secondhand emotions? Yo, do you have evidence? Are you just feeling some type of way? Are they retaliating towards you or are you just feeling some type of way because they gave you feedback? Right? I love when people like love to be like, this is retaliatory. Do you know what that means?

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Because there are like people will use that word because it's they love yeah, it's like almost like it's too defensive. It's like I get it, you're right. I shouldn't make up a problem because you did something else I didn't like. That is very, very true. However, not turning in things on time, like the reason why everyone gets so like abrasive about that is the downstream effects of that. Like that's why, yeah, very fair.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Yeah. Another question is have I confused bad management with an ethics violation? Oh, so like we said, like maybe your manager just doesn't give you a safe space, and so now you're trying to make that an ethics violation. And at the end of the day, like they should be good supervisors, and there may be something in the supervisey handbook that you might be able to touch on to lean on that, but again, it's gonna go back to did you give them feedback and have a conversation? Because there's a contract, you don't have to stay in that contract with them, right? Like if your supervisor is not supportive, you have the right to walk away. Now, again, I'm not talking about people who are like fighting for their lives and need this job to survive. Talking about someone that has the flexibility to be able to go elsewhere. Um, am I trying to protect someone or am I trying to get someone back? If you are like going through your ethics case and you're thinking about how you're hurting someone else to get them back, you're probably not making the right decision. That's a big one. And then would I still report this if I weren't personally angry?

SPEAKER_01 55:12

That's lit.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

So if it had somebody else's story had nothing to do with you, would you still feel that it was a reportable offense? Sometimes it is. Sometimes you're angry because you're like, this is wrong, right? Yeah, that's a true thing, and move forward with it. But sometimes your feelings just got hurt, and that that's a therapy thing. That that part that take that home to talk to your partner about that part.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

Stare at the moon at 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

And then you'll feel better.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

Be an adult.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

Um if your emotive changes depending on your mood, it may not be ethics.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

You know, I was loving this talk until these last couple questions. I'm kind of pissed because I feel definitely like, hey.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

You talking about me?

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Yeah, we can have a conversation off the air. I I want to I definitely want to follow up with you about this shit because it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

You're like, dang, Matthews, I would never come for you again.

unknown 56:08

I would never come for you.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Thank you. Sorry. I'm just in my feelings. It's my mood. Yeah, my mood changed.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Now you're about to report me because you got emotions and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

So shook.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

You know, ethics, ethics really should be a safeguard. It's not beautifully put. It it's not something you pull out when you're upset, and it's not something you use for a leverage, and it is something that should never be used as a weapon. And that's like, I think that's our biggest point is we're not saying, like I said earlier, we're not saying don't report. Yes. I'm saying listen to those questions. If you're going through those questions and you're not feeling those things, like you're like, no, this doesn't apply to me, you probably should be reporting. You probably should be reporting because it's definitely something that's concerning, right? Like that it is a violation. But if you're going through those questions and you're like, yep, I'm angry, like you know, like, yeah, well, I totally see what you're saying. Like, if I wasn't, if I didn't take it personally, um, then you you're probably sitting in a space where you're upset about something. It's an emotional like response, and navigating your emotions as a professional is something you have to do before you respond.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

That's all I got.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

It doesn't help that our side was saying emotions were fake for so long. Now we gotta come to terms with the fact that we're gonna be able to do that. Now we have to deal with emotions, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

That's what we get. Now that's why everyone's extra emotional because we were out here like emotions don't count.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

That's mentalism. Like, yeah. And now here we are. Watch. Look now. Look at us. Sad. Yeah, exactly. Anyway with 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Sad. This is sad on a Monday at 7 o'clock.

SPEAKER_02 57:52

Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

Sad.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

You see what you guys do? You see what y'all do?

SPEAKER_00 57:57

You cause this.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

Your behavior has effects, man. You know, monitor yourself.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

Literally, literally. I think we we've touched on a lot of stuff, but I really want people to take home what you put on the internet. Um, that is where we see all the things. That's what that's how a lot of our topics come up.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Um, because Matthews put stuff on the internet at 3 a.m. And then I have to text him, like, you good?

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Yeah, Twin, we should know where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

We're good. Um, but they people are putting things on the internet, and they are some of them are doing it anonymously, where they're like treating people like shit back. Um, say it with your chest, first of all, if you're gonna say something at all. Um, I was so mad the other day I posted something and it went anonymous. And I was like, dude, not me. Say it with my chest. And I couldn't like respond anymore because as myself, because it's like once you do anonymous, it like stays anonymous.

SPEAKER_03 58:53

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

I was so mad, Matthews. I was like, nah, dog. Say that with my chest. I was so mad.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

By the way, my name is Here's my B-A-C-B-I-D. Literally, look me up. That's dope. Call me. Here's my number.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Really, really dope. I was really upset because I was like, nah, I meant that. Yeah. I'm not hiding behind anonymous. I meant what I said when I said you're acting like a daycare by forcing these kids 40 hours a week.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Yo. See, this is a perfect space where you and I can disagree. And we can have this. As long as it's ethical. Yeah, yeah. As long as it's ethical.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Right, which is as long as it's ethical. The kiddle needs, I've worked with a kid who needed 40 hours, surely. Like that exists. Um, but when you put them only in center and you have them do 40 hours, you never take them out of the center. You don't generalize, you don't really do parent training in the home. You're in a contrived setting.

unknown 59:43

Dang.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Very fair.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

I didn't report them. Thought about it.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Brought it up to them directly.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Brought it up, my concerns.

SPEAKER_02 59:52

Magically, they don't let me work there no more. But hey, I said it with my whole chest to their face.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

I said it with my chest. I brought it up, my concerns. Um, I reduced half the kids' hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

That makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Because if I'm gonna sign my name on something, I better believe in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

If I'm gonna put my name, I better believe on it. I have seen kids thrive at 20 hours, and I I do believe that you can go to I you can go to 40, but you can't make everybody go to 40.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

It makes zero sense. Doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Right? There are kids that need 40, but they are not the ratio of kids that have 40 hours. That's just not realistic.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

Um, and so like I'm gonna say that with my chest all day. Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. All day, I will argue. I'll be on the TikToks.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

That part. Oh, you're really out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

I'd be out there like, mm, wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

Man, I'm too scared. You know, I'd be talking like I'm wildin' now. I'm not gonna tell you. I talk crazy on TikTok. That's dope.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

I talk crazy on TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

I need to match that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:51

I don't talk crazy on LinkedIn, but I talk crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:54

If there's anywhere to do it, it's it's there.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

I don't talk crazy on LinkedIn, but I do talk crazy on TikTok. Like, don't let me get on ABA TikTok because they'd be making me mad over there.

unknown 1:01:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Sometimes they say crazy stuff and I'm like, bro, you have three clients.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

Yeah, yeah, no. I feel that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

Be quiet. That's that's literally like what are we talking about? And then they'll talk about their caseloads from Southern California, because obviously the caseloads are drastically different when you have a mid-tier and like oh yeah, sure, sure. Drastically different caseloads, which is why we don't really look at caseloads, we look at ours, sure, right? Like we look at billable. Yeah, um, and interesting uh people are like that's crazy. Like, how do you do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

And I'm like, It's just different, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

You don't train your mid-tiers to act like little BCB apes?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:36

Yeah, very fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

We don't have that problem. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

What it's so funny, like what do they think the 2,000 hours were there for? Like just to collect and do something. They were just supposed to do data forever, and then all of a sudden, once you pass, well, then you learn a whole new skill set. It's like, no man, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

But again, that's me. I'd be like, train them, and then when they know how to do it, give them the promotion.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

Yeah, very, very fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

Hello, why would you want to? That's how you get imposter syndrome. Put someone in a role and they don't feel confident, confident or comfortable in the skill set. Yeah, sure. Then they get there and then they have imposter syndrome. But did I did I do an ethics violation by training people? Because they didn't train their people right and I have judgment on it? No.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

I gave feedback very fair, very, very fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

That is what I did, and I accept feedback. That's why I think also true, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Supremely true, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Too much feedback, might I say I respect it, but I'm like sometimes I'm like, hey guys, that you're bullying me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

That part, yeah. Inside, inside, outside thoughts, y'all.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Y'all just be now we're all done. We're all done beating me up. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

Thank you for your feedback.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Thanks for that feedback. That's unrealistic, but I appreciate that use of your noggin. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

That part. No, it's fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Because in some other world, it it would work.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

I was thinking the exact same thing. It's important to hear people be wrong because it helps me know what all the possibilities are, even though it's just not the case. Like, wow, there is a world where that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

Yeah, that exists.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:09

Yeah, not here.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Not here. Over there. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:14

It is.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

That is okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

It's always a navigation problem. If you don't like it, leave.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Why drag people into which takes us back to disengagement?

unknown 1:03:29

You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

And again, did we do a violation on those people who were disengaged and abandoned clients or engaged those behaviors? No.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Super interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

We had a conversation, maybe we gave feedback, and then we did what we had to do to support the child.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

I remember back in the day when companies were telling people they couldn't quit until there were replacements.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:51

And that is like still a thing I see people talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

Really, man. See, that's the problem of them not being on social media. I know they want to protect their mental health, and I think rightfully so. This uh fragmented version of reality we get from everybody's perspective is not useful or helpful whatsoever. But I did also learn that that was happening, and it's like it can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

Yeah, and that's the thing. Like, so we kind of talked about like as a business owner, sure, I don't want someone to just abandon their clients, right? And ethically we shouldn't. But people are afraid because other companies have not given them a safe space that when they put their two-week notice in, you allow them their two-week notice and you don't treat them like crap their last two weeks, or you don't just say, Well, it's accepted today by yeah, sure. Especially clinically, right? So, like as a business owner, there are certain roles and positions where it's like, hey, you have access to private information, personal information of employees or certain roles. I I can't allow you to continue with your resignation. Like you do have to accept immediately, right? That is a business side of things. That's administrative, where a lot of that happens, right? Like HR, finance, like that does happen on that end.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Um, and you do sometimes have to make that decision. Sure. There are other sides of that story where there are clinicians who have the right to change jobs, like they have the right to go elsewhere. Um, and there's people who are literally like, you can't leave until we transition these kids because that's unethical. And you're trapping people and you're weaponizing ethics. That's not fair. If someone gives you two weeks, come up with a plan or take that caseload in those two weeks, like figure it out. But you don't get to trap people.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:31

No, I mean, why would you even want to? This is where it's almost like if they don't want to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

Why are you forcing them to be here?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

Hey, what's motivating you is I love how people love to say that control isn't one of these functions. And I I respect it. And I think we can this is an episode for another conversation for another episode. But at the end of the day, when we're talking about what's organizing the behavior, so I'll take it control ain't a function, but I'll take it as a motivating operator. Like I don't quite know how to argue. Articulate it, but it's definitely organizing the behavior because it's not based on some, it's almost like a conditional discrimination. I don't even know what I'm gonna do until you say what you're gonna do. Then I'm gonna tell you the opposite. Yeah, super simple. And it's not okay. But like in a situation like that, I would not want a we're working with kids, B, why do you even want someone at an organization when they don't want to be there? There's certain levels of professionalism, and honestly, sometimes maybe you could even save it if you're taking the time to kind of walk through things.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

But it it it yeah, I just don't like on every level, that is just wild to me. It's so reckless, even because you're keeping someone that could have essentially influenced things in a way that maybe isn't even the fairiest. Yeah. You know, they can move perspectives or change how people are viewing things because of their attitude. It ends up affecting morale. Yeah. It's like let them go. They want to leave, let them be free.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

Yeah. And I I think there is, I think you may have said this in an interview where you were like, it matters about what people do when you leave more than like what onboarding or staying looks like.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

Oh, too shade.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Um someone told me you said this in an interview. I don't know if it's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

Oh, that's funny. Definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

I was like, I don't know. Someone told me you said that in an interview.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

Um, but I have heard this from other people too who have asked, like, what is it like when you leave? Like, what's the offboarding and all of those things? Um, and I think we've even had conversations where like there are times where I will sit and be like, let's have a conversation. Like, what are the barriers? What's happening? Like, how can I support you? Give me feedback. Even if it doesn't let someone stay, like, what's the feedback? Like, yeah, why are you leaving? Right. And then, like you said, there's sometimes you can save something, like something bothered them, they didn't know how to have a difficult conversation, they're early in their leadership journey, weren't sure how to address it. Um, and then you can address it and fix the problem. And then you also open up that space for them to feel safe. Uh, but when someone gives their two weeks and they're set on their two weeks, you don't go and be disrespectful. You allow them the space to exit gracefully. And the fact that they gave you two weeks, because in a world where like they could just quit tomorrow, and sure, maybe it's an ethics, like they abandon their client, but it is the responsibility of the organization, if a especially if a BCBA owns it, to figure out how to navigate that situation so that clients aren't abandoned. Um, so I mean, there's like two sides to it, but I definitely think that companies weaponize ethics in a way that's just so inappropriate and unnecessary. Just say you're a bad leader. Just say you're a bad leader. If you have to weaponize ethics, just say you're a bad leader. Because you shouldn't have to do that to motivate your team or to get people on board or to stay that like you shouldn't have to do that. They should just want to do good and do right because they've been trained and they have a safe space to navigate those conversations and understand those situations. But you know, the people who weaponize ethics, I I genuinely hope that they can reflect and really understand that their leadership style is not working.

unknown 1:09:02

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

That's poor leadership and read a book. There's plenty of them. There's tons of leadership books that will literally change your life, like change your life. Like, I I was not the best leader. Like, people tell me all the time that I was, and I'm like, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

I think you're wrong, but I understand. I go, I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:21

You know, like I think that there were situations I could have handled a lot better. I think about that. There was people that I may have impacted that I could have done something different. And we kind of touched on it, but it was like I I probably made decisions that maybe weren't the best, but I will say I never weaponized ethics. So shout out to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Never that part, that part, just never, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

I I some of you guys just need to learn conflict resolution and not the ethics hotline. That's all. Just you know, just a little bit, just put the phone down, stop Googling the ethics website and just think about what is human and and what is kind and empathetic, and how do I address this concern? And then ask yourself those questions that we talked about, and if it's an ethics violation, report it. But if it's emotional, check yourself, own it. Period. Mic drop, that's it. That's the 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:29

That's the 3 a.m. That part. That's the 3 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

gem. But you know, I don't know, Matthew's. I hope they get it together.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

I think we are, you know what I mean? I know people are all worried about the pass rates. We bring it up every every time. Every time, but there's so many more people testing now, dude. I feel and honestly, I feel like the number of quality conversations that I have had now, the number of spaces that people have to express themselves more. There is that weird kind of bullying trying to silence people, but it just doesn't, it doesn't quite hit because I think people are recognizing we're just going through the steps. Yeah. Like I said, if there's no harm, well, then I need to reserve my judgment, let's say, or at least not allow my judgment to go in that direction. Because there are those places, like there's certain kinds of abuse that aren't physical at all or physiological at all, but it still has an effect. So it's not to say that if there's no physical harm, or then there's nothing here. We're not we're not saying that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

Which is where the ethics hotline comes in. There is a great area, like there is space to, you know, like what is this defined as? Actually, it is harmful, but how am I explaining, you know, like that that is why we have all these things.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Yeah, that's the whole point. And you know, when we're calling these hotlines, we're talking to one person, it's like it's not exactly a voting thing, but there's a spirit of something that we are chasing. It's just difficult to talk about because we're so tied to like a purely materialist view. I'm not gonna bring any ideas that I won't find if I cut the thing in half. If it ain't there when I look inside, it doesn't exist. Tight, you know, that's kind of how we're our method is because that's the easiest way to deal with psychology without projecting all kinds of other bullshit onto it. And that's exactly what we end up allowing ourselves. It's almost like a gosh, I'm so embarrassed to not have that word right off the top of my head. Behavioral contrast. It's almost like we go so long in one environment without necessarily doing that, that we find an outlet for it, and then it ends up not being where we need it to be. And again, to clarify, this is about those gray area ethics issues that are not involving harm. Yeah. Where people are rattling the cage over, you know, whether a trampoline park is ethical. Like you can't just answer that with a yes or no, or whether a parent falling asleep is unethical. Obviously, we're gonna cancel sessions, yeah, but there's no ethics violation there. She fell asleep. There's a policy violation. How many of those does any company allow before?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:00

Some of these companies, people violate policies all day to keep their clients and their billable hours and their BTs stayed.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

And I mean, in a way, that's against the ethics. Like our our our whole frame should never be pointed towards convenience or benefit other than the child's or the patients. And I think even then the convenience part for the patient isn't necessarily the it's not convenient to have someone with you all the time. Yeah, very fair.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

But you telling what to do and telling you to, you know what I mean? Like it's not, it's not. Yeah, it just needs to have clinical justification.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

There needs to be clarity. But I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I hope that you self-evaluate and don't use ethics as a weapon. Um, because if you do and we see it, Matthews and I will just argue with you on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

Leave these poor, young, my fellow young BCBAs and other behavior analysts. Leave the young analysts alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

Leave them alone. Let them do great all on their own.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:03

That was so late. Bars.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:06

Bars. Well, that's it for today, everyone. Thank you for listening. Talk to you later. Bye.