Episode 4 BT to CEO Pipeline. What's missing?

In this episode of Pairing Gone Wrong, we’re unpacking the classic ABA glow-up: BT today, supervisor tomorrow, BCBA by Friday, CEO by next fiscal quarter. ABA loves to push passionate people into leadership and ownership, but somehow forgets to teach them how to actually lead, manage conflict, build systems, understand business, supervise ethically, or run an organization without surviving purely on caffeine, crisis, and vibes. We’re talking about how being great with clients does not automatically mean you’re ready to lead a team or open a company, and why the field needs to stop confusing clinical talent with leadership readiness. Growth is great. Unsupported promotions disguised as “opportunities”? Pairing gone wrong.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to another episode of Paring Gone Wrong. My name is Matthews Bedhead.

SPEAKER_04 0:05

And I'm Chelsea Mena. And today we're talking about the BT to CEO pipeline. Wow. So this is gonna be a good one. You're about to get a history lesson on Matthews and my history in the field of ABA. Uh, you're about to know the lore of who we are and how we ended up making this podcast practically.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Real human resources.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Uh so let's just start with like where we started and how we ended up here in ABA. So, Matthews, take us through your lore of how you went from where you started to BCBA.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

I worked in a functional skills classroom. That was actually when I first got exposed to Skinner. So I had read Skinner before that because I worked in marketing and our approach was very behavioral. Is how much time are you spending on a website? Uh, what could I look at to I don't want to say predict because that's not technically what it is, but we're looking at, you know, when you're having conversations, are you more or like like less likely to buy? If you're more likely to buy, well, what makes you have more of a conversation? So it would be very easy to just look at things, put it on a checklist, check a box, and then fail miserably, but then tell my boss, no, but I did all the things, but I was interested in this seriously. So it's like if I'm gonna develop a conversation for this product versus that one, I was selling lights or I was selling makeup or makeup bags even or lipstick or whatever it is, it's a different thing that's gonna spark a conversation in each one of those things. Like a conversation isn't the same thing in each one of those contexts. However, I did feel like the behavioral approaches, the true like behaviorist approaches. So I started off with Skinner Behavior of Organism, but I was also reading Thorndike and Watson and all the other guys or whatever. Um, I was just into it because I was trying to get like a like how do I come up with an empirical system, like something systematic. So when I was working in a functional skills classroom and they're telling me that they're using Skinner to teach the babies how to talk, I thought that's fucking not correct. Like, how the hell does that work? Any connection, yeah, between children's development and and behaviorism, and why are we using behaviorism to approach that? But the answer was there for me. You know, the the the they were successful in their programs and all that kind of stuff. So basically, I was working in a classroom, and because of that, I met people and I started working in-home. Got it out outside. I got involved in supervision because with the particular payer that I was working with, they needed Spanish-speaking parent training. They didn't have it. I didn't even have 12 credits or I didn't have supervisory.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

I didn't even know this lore.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So this was back in the OC. Shout out to Orange County because they you know what I mean? That's where the never Trumpers were at. You know, LC, LC is lit, man. People gotta people gotta get out of the simplified boxes they have trying to characterize people. So yeah, so it was in it was in Orange County that they let me do that. So I was living out here and I was driving out there every day. Shout out to the 91. This is when I started listening to podcasts, and this is how I got into audiobooks and started staring at the sun to figure out what title was because I had a lot of time. And that was where, so it was like that exposure to the supervision was super dope. I got to write a lot of FBAs, I got involved in assessments and kind of the programming part. So when I came back to the IE, that was not gonna fly. And actually, the first agency I was at, they were like, yo, like they won't do that.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

They're like, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

There's no way, yeah. But you can become a BT and then we can talk about getting you into a supervision program. So I, of course, I did it and I lagged because I was working at a school, I was working as a BT after school, so I was fine. Like, I had no monetary or like there was no financial thing kind of pushing me to do it, it was just my interest in behaviorism itself. Even to this day, I'm hesitant because you know a lot of our colleagues will talk about the science, the science, and I'm hesitant to use that word in that way, even though they're right. I'm not critiquing, it is true, this is what it is. But uh, when I started studying it, I wasn't even sure what is a science. That was my question because people keep telling me, well, the science says, and I'll be like, who is this? Yeah, what are we talking about? Galen, like wasn't he some random Roman dude or not a Roman guy? Yeah, no, he just wrote in Latin. I don't know, yeah. So I don't I don't know. So that was kind of my confusion with it, and I stuck with it. I ended up going into a program again, reluctantly. Like I wasn't interested in the leadership part of it, it was just, oh, this is what's necessary in order to move on to do a tune to the next step.

SPEAKER_04 4:45

How long were you a BT?

SPEAKER_01 4:47

I was a BT from like working working in home. I think I started 2015.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah, working in home. So, but at that school, I started in 2012.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

And I actually worked at a group home that used behavioral strategies.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Shout out to group homes.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Yeah, but they were primarily punishment strategies, right? So yeah, it was a lot of over-correction, response cost type type stuff. But I mean, you know, even in that environment, it was like there was an immediate recognition that like the way I get your respect is not by putting my knee on your neck, right? It's just by existing with you as a human being. And I understood that the punishment strategies that we had in place, well, that was just about communicating about whether your behavior was appropriate or not. So I mean they were still about immediate feedback. Don't let something happen and then bring it up a minute later, even yeah. It was like it has to be in the moment, so we're not catching people off guard and they can kind of make the connections. So that from 2020, or I'm sorry, 2010, and basically I was in a Jace, like doing adjacent work from 2010 and on. Okay. So I became a supervisor in 2017.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Came back out to the IE in about 2019, I think it was, and then uh, oh, I'm sorry, I came out, I I came back to the IE in 2017, sorry, um, 2018 or so, and then I didn't do supervision again until about 2020.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

So I was here as a BT. When we met, I was working already as a supervisor.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Yeah. Primarily. Because you came on as a supervisor.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

Okay. And then how long? I'm I know the answer, but how long were you in the super role?

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Well like my second time around, it was pretty much from 2020 to 2024, I would say. And 2020 was interesting because when I worked as a supervisor, I wasn't anywhere really. I was doing a lot of contract work because the pandemic had just hit.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

So a lot of different companies didn't even want people full time or even part-time.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

They couldn't afford them.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah, it was like, I don't even know if you're gonna be able to work. So a lot of it at the beginning was contract work with a bunch of different companies. Get one case here, get two cases there, and then having to adapt myself to they want reports done this way. We have trackers that are used that way on this one. There's this communication style. Here's we use Zoom here, we use Teams here, we use chat here, and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 7:05

That's a talent that you have because I could never like I when I had three jobs, I was like, bro, I'm gonna lose my mind because but it worked because I was making the systems.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Oh, at all of them, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

It worked for me because it was like, yeah, I make the system. So you facilitated the communication, right? Yeah, but I couldn't be at three organizations using different things, I wouldn't, I would have failed miserably. So shout out to you.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

You know, gaming though, honestly, because we'd be talking on Discord or back in the day we used to use BattleNet. I don't people might not even know about that. I have no clue what that is. It's how you used to play StarCraft with each other. It's a whole asset. What's Starcraft? You know what? I'm leaving now. Goodbye. I'm tired of your fucking jokes. Like, like every damn day. That's that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

You're like every day you're gonna disrespect me in the past. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

No, no. Starcraft is a s is a real-time strategy game. You're you're you're just you pick arrays, you got different technology, you build a base, you send spaceships to go blast each other, and then you make tanks to defend yourself. It's a it's a whole thing. So when you played online, you couldn't just connect with each other now. That existed in your day, like this is why I didn't want to do this. I knew this was gonna happen, dude. That's the problem. I should have seen it.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

I should have just you should have known when I said what StarCraft. No, you should have known I was setting you up for that.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Damn it. So yeah, communication systems, I guess, are good.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Oh my god, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Okay, so then you were a soup till 2024, and that's when you came a B C B A?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah, early 2024. I became a BCBA.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

Dang.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Even that got prolonged because I got my degree in 2020, and then the task list changed happened, and then I didn't keep up. And you know, it's on me, it's completely on me. I did I didn't realize yeah, it I had to eat it and it was painful. And then I mean, I think I don't even remember how much I had to pay for those bridge courses. It might have been like $3,000 a course or something.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

How many classes did you have to take?

SPEAKER_01 9:05

It was just three.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

It was three, yeah. But it was super helpful because I took the three classes. So, like, first, first off, my my thing was like, I need a place to work, but also when it comes to clinical stuff, I was just interested in pursuing I don't want to call it clinical excellence, because you know what I mean? But like we're blessed in our circles because there's a lot of people asking themselves the question how do I make this better? How do I make this more effective? How do I make this resound? You have the right circle, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So, like, like it helps that that that helped that helped a lot. Um, but yeah, I uh didn't when I'm sorry, when I took the three courses, I ended up, I was already ready. Right when I finished the courses, I signed up for my B C D A exam. Okay and so I was able to take it. And actually, I had signed up and then a date 30 days earlier opened up.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

So then I was just like, fuck it. I just want to see if I could take it, and I took it and then it worked out.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

So it was uh like it just worked.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

It just worked, yeah. It was a little lit, yeah. But it ruined everyone's timeline.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Not mine.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

It wasn't that part, that part. Yeah, it wasn't, it was not expected.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

It was perfect timing.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, it was perfect. Listen, listen, the way it all unfolded was was that super lit. That part, that part.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

You didn't ruin my timeline.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

No, thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah, no. Mine either, you know. I was I was ecstatic.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

You're like, this is exactly what I wanted.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Right. Because no one goes to take it and be like, I'm just gonna, I'll just wait till somebody else's timeline.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, yeah. I had it, I had to take the reins a little bit on there.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

Okay. Um in all those phases, where do you think you learn the most? And if if you're gonna be like, because I feel like you're gonna be like, I learned different things in the different okay. Um in which phase do you think you learn the most to prepare you if you ever wanted to become a CEO?

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Oh, damn, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. I I I think probably in the BCBA role for sure. For sure. I think um, you know, it's even like even understanding what it takes for an organization to exist, let's say. I think understanding is actually a bad word because you don't have an understanding of what it takes for an organization to exist in the abstract.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

You have to be like on the ground in reality to see why things are the way they are, they are completely inseparable. There is no organization without the context that it's in that that that's growing it. But I think like once I start getting asked questions about a bottom line, once we start having to look at how many billables are getting hit per week, I realized real quick that there's certain things that cannot be solved at a response-response level, which is typically how we're trained in doing interventions in ABA. So I used to look down at our brothers and sisters when they would graduate or get their BCVA and then be like, oh, I study OBM now.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I'd be like, kindly, go fuck yourself.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

But now I get why, and it and it makes a lot of sense. Actually, we don't have to get into it now, but yeah, you know exactly where I'm going. But but it was important to look at it at a higher level. Yeah. So this is where the molar behavior guys and William Bohm and all those guys really influenced me. Um, because I started thinking about how do I set up the systems in a way to get the kind of output that I didn't want. So it's like, if I want to understand what my system is, I need to be looking at what is it doing? Like what is it producing? Because that like that is what causes it. In an abstract way, I don't think the system itself necessarily causes good or bad outcomes. Like you could have the exact same system, plug it in somewhere, and it just works for things that aren't accounted for within the system. You know what I mean? Um, but I think thinking about it like that as a BCBA, and also because I was exposed to different companies, seeing how multiple people are doing it, so all at the same time, I'm getting a higher level read from everybody about how they all all do their shit. And at the end of the day, I have to answer the question of did I make enough money? Not in a negative way, just for all of us to exist, for this to exist.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

For things to just continue.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

We need to be able to hit, we need to hit certain things. So I didn't get a real feel for that up until I was working as a BCBA when my one-to-ones were basically with CEOs or the directors or the owners of the company themselves. Um, I think being exposed to those people directly is exactly what kind of opened up my mind to the kinds of questions or the kinds of problems that they're solving because it's just, you know, it's a at a different level. I hate to word it like that. Maybe level isn't true because some people don't want to talk about hierarchy or whatever, but it's a different dimension. It's another domain. It's not the same set of problems, it's not a similar set of problems. It's not just, oh, we work with people now. No, it includes the environment itself, it includes stakeholders, it includes employees, it includes customers, and all that kind of stuff. And again, I had because when I was working in the clinical, I was so deep in the clinical that I never allowed myself to ask myself those kinds of questions. Yeah. Because who gives a shit? You know, at the end of the day, I need to answer a question to a parent. Um, when you're sitting across to Chelsea with the Excel sheet open and they're asking you questions, like, all right, well, fuck, I gotta have an answer for this too. You know, it just changed, it changed my approach.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

So definitely I think it was the BCBA role that that prepared me more for a CEO or anything, anything organized. Like that kind of level. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

Did you ever at any point, like especially as a BT, because I I always find it so astonishing when like a BT is like, I want to own my own company, and I'm I'm always just like at a BT level, um, that's how you're feeling, which is great because that means you're truly passionate about it. But I remember being at the BT level and was like, fuck no. Like, you know, like I don't want to own a company. This is not what I want to do forever. Like it was it's a high burnout job. We all know that. No matter how amazing your company is, your team is, no matter how amazing it is, you have a kid that has high behaviors and you're with him four, five, you know, days a week, like I don't care how amazing your clinical team is or your company is, like, that's exhausting and that's mentally draining. So I I do find it really like you know, shocking when a BT is like, I want to own my own company and I'm gonna go back to school to like do these things. But at any point when you were in the BT role, because you worked in different settings, like I haven't worked directly only in a school setting. So like you had the experience to be like a school setting, you've had a group home, like you had different experiences. At any point were you like, yeah, this is I want to own this, I want to do this shit. This is the shit I want to do, or you felt like you were getting taught the skills to try and go that path.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

That's funny. No, you know, uh to answer explicit, and it's not just because we're in the room together, in terms of learning the skills directly to run the a company in ABA, I learned that directly from you. Like, hands down, easy. It would it would be similar if I said I wanted to open up an ice cream shop. I gotta go find out because it's not just serving ice cream. Yeah, I think this is where the people make the mistake. There's storage component, who are you ordering from, what happens when your sources for all that kind of stuff. So I learned about that whole side of what we do through you, through the conversations with you, not just from the problems, also, it was also from the overall framework. It was like there were holes that I wouldn't even know to be aware of as we walk through this field in the dark that you were fucked, you were absolutely primed for it. So that helped because you know it's always this little problems always get me. Yeah, it's like little problems will will absolutely ruin my sleep. As a BT, though, I did want to own one of the companies.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, yeah. I think I think I was one of those as well. I actually had no intention, let's say, of necessarily going to get my certification. Part of what motivated me thinking about getting into a program was when I realized, oh, I might not be able to partner with someone.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

I might have to do the clinical part myself, which was not my intention at the beginning, because I felt perfectly comfortable having the clinical conversation with the certified person. Yeah. If I'm out of pocket, you got the ethics, fucking tell me. Tell me. Yeah, you know, so that that's what it'd be. But once I realized kind of, oh man, I might have to do it all myself. I really took a step back and I committed to it though. So it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna get this certification and then I'm gonna go from there. I wanted to be able to walk anywhere in any country and start talking my shit.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

So that was the like kind of tenacity that I started studying this shit with. Because even if we don't see eye to eye on something, I want to be able to present something like kind of valid. So that that was what made me be like, oh, okay, I gotta get the degree now.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Because I'm not gonna be able to hire the person the way I wanted to.

SPEAKER_04 18:10

Yeah. Which I think is like that's great because that's also where I think I've seen a conversation about like, should BTs be owners, should RBTs be owners of a company, or even the conversation of like, I I don't remember what state it is, but the state just rolled out a law in 2027 that every ABA company has to have a BCBA as an owner.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Really?

SPEAKER_04 18:31

Um, and it didn't really, I think people are saying the loophole is like they only have to be a certain percentage, but they do need to be in the ownership, right? Which this is not a new concept. So LMFTs uh and like those types of like mental health and and things like that, they do need to have some part of like the ownership or clinical decisions or like know that or other things, right? Like they don't, I mean, they they have to be a part of that because they have to hold the ethics. So I'm I'm not surprised that like we're going that way because obviously that person has to hold the ethics, their license is on the line. Um the same with ABA, I do think that there should be a point where we're like, hey, is someone upholding the ethics? And it's hard as a BCBA working under someone to uphold ethics because that person can decide if you have a job today or tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Sure, they can fire you over. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

So um, I I do think that that is a the concept, right? But then that kind of leads us to where we're at in this BT to CEO pipeline is like, at what point is a person ready for that? And does a person have to be ready for that? Not every BCBA wants to be an owner, and not every BCBA should be an owner, like those are facts, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

The wulda, coulda's, and the shoulda's. Yeah, that's super interesting. Yeah, first off, I'm shocked. I didn't know that about that law changing. I don't even know how I feel about that, right? But then you calmed me down immediately when you were like, hold on, we already do this with the LMFTs, because that definitely is like clashing against my more libertarian values.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Because it's like, why should that stop? I I get all of it on both sides. Yeah, um, but it is something that does exist. So like in the mental health, yeah. Yeah, in the mental health field, it is it does exist. Um, and so we do have the the nonprofit and we have like the mental health component. Um, and that's how we have like she gets a point a a voice on the board, right? Like so, like she's a part of that. Um but it's because like the the license and all the certifications and the ethics need to be upheld.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

So someone clinically for her, you're saying she's on the board, but she's overseeing the ethics, like for her certification, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:44

Because she it's her license, right? So, like right now, like if there's a discussion about our mental health department, it's like us three have a discussion, right? Because it's a nonprofit and we're on the board, and there's like an ethics. I I have to defer to her at all times. Like, what do your ethics say? Because your ethics are different from my ethics.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

And so she can tell me at any point, like, yes, I know I can't or can't do that, and I have to abide by that, right? Like, that's her license on the line.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

Um, and so I get why they're doing it this way, and it does exist, so it's not something scary.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 21:17

Um, and it it practically is happening because you'll see it on the Facebook pages where they're like, We're looking to partner with a BCBA. Like, we need because you can't do anything without a B C B A.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Also true, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

You can't bill without a BCBA. So whether you want to give them part of your business or you want them to work under you, at the end of the day, just give them the five percent of the business and like eat it and call it what it is, right? Um, but I I do I I get what they're trying to accomplish. But coming to the BT CEO pipeline, are they prepared for BCBAs to take that kind of role? And and if that's the case, then our I mean, I don't know, I haven't been in school since 2018, but then our Curriculum needs to change. Right? Like if you're telling me that, and and this is only in one state, so I mean, this may grow or may not grow, but uh if you're telling me you have to be a BCBA to be in ownership of an ABA company, uh-huh, um, and already we're shorthanded BCBA, so that's about to really rock the boat, right? Uh, but if you're saying that, then the curriculum and the education needs to change to prepare these people to be CEOs.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

And it does not.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

That is damn. You know, you know, touche on that, because like the recent conversations that people have been having about how do we change the curriculum, how do we like prepare people to whatever. Maybe it's just because I'm a dumbass, but I didn't feel like like because it was talking to you that I that I I took a first step back. We're like, well, if people aren't passing, it's because we're not preparing them. And I was like, first off, all your people passed. You know, you got numbers, so don't say, don't say we.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

Don't talk to me about all my people that passed.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

But I mean, it's still impressive that that like obviously you know what you're talking about when you say that. You have people that are taking this test, they've been passing consistently since 2024. You feel me? They've been passing consistently at least one per year, sometimes two or even even more than that. Um I do think there's something about like the business that we have to that we have to talk about. It was uh Sean from um from the underground conference that I that I was talking to recently. I mean, he brought it up. He's like, oh, well, it sounds like uh we were talking, there was some leadership thing he and I were talking about. And it was like, it sounds like these are the soft skills that that people need. And uh, but that was the first time I'd ever heard that term and bought in. Because I'm always kind of like, like, what are soft skills? Like sales, right? I don't want to teach us sales. No, like don't do that. You know what I mean? We need to be less slimy, actually. As hard as it is, it's like maybe I shouldn't convince you. If you're not down, just walk away. Come back when you're ready, or if you want it. Like, you know, like informed consent. I don't want to influence uh undo in any way. However, in this conversation, when we're talking about soft skills, I mean, I don't think they're soft skills. I think there are skills in how to run a business. There's a particular class of problem I love to ramble to you about, but it's called machine shop problems. It's like if you have a certain number of jobs with the number of tasks in them, let's say, like I have a job that has 10 tasks, another job that has 50 tasks, and I have four machines. How do I split up the jobs and the tasks across the machines in a way that minimizes the amount of time that each machine is sitting doing nothing, kind of thing? And there's different ways you can actually optimize for different ways. You can optimize to get this job done faster or this type of task done quicker, whatever. I think as a field, it would benefit us to study shit like that because we already have it. I mean, the whole evolution of ABA right now is like life is full of many paths.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

How do we direct you towards the one that'll benefit what your own goals are? Kind of thing. That's where the molar behavior comes back in. That's where like that level of abstraction, I if I I guess we can call it that. Like, that's where that level of abstraction comes from when we're talking about dealing with behavior. So I think those are the things that we we do have to learn. Yeah, and I think it's on two sides. One's just a business period. How do you figure it out? You even need to know how much money to bring into it. Because what if you have the cash? You got a B C B A working two to three jobs. What if they have the cash to put up, right? But they approach it in a stupid ass way. So they just burn through their cash and and sustain to nothing. You know, like you need to you need to you need to be able to grow yourself in a way that you can handle the perturbations of uh insurance is paying late or people paying 80% of what of what the contract is at and and all that kind of stuff, which you just won't, you know.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

Yeah, you won't have that. But I I think that the curriculum, there would have to be a whole different pathway, like literally a CEO pathway that would include it like a basic financial class, like a basic insurance class, like a basic leadership class. Uh because listen, let me just tell you guys right now because I'm gonna go into tangent.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 26:03

I'm about to get real mad. If you guys do one more leadership CEU and don't teach anyone a goddamn thing, and you just talk about what you want, I'm gonna lose my fucking mind. Yo, I am so tired of like these leadership CEUs, and I I will go and take them and then I waste my 15 fucking dollars to sit there and hear someone talk about the same thing over and over and over. At what point is that CEU no longer valid? Like, why do you guys keep doing that? Funny. Why? Like it's driving me bonkers because I feel like I just never find a CEU that is an actual, like there's only very few CEUs that I can remember because I took them with certain people that taught me leadership components, sure, like true actionable things that I could do to be a better leader, to be a better business owner, to like do these other skill sets. And I just need that to be the thing. Now, let's say I know someone's gonna be like, well, then make your own CEO. Be the change, I don't have time, okay?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

That part.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

I will though, and when I do, you're gonna be sad. That part.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

You're gonna be asking, why don't I learn?

SPEAKER_04 27:19

You're gonna be sad when I do it.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

But that's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

There, there's like those are the skills, right? That like need to there needs to be like another pathway if that's like what we're gonna start requiring that needs to exist. And if you don't take that pathway, you can't be an owner.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, no, man, I'm not, you know.

SPEAKER_04 27:39

Cause what we're doing when you have shitty ownership as a BCBA is you are ruining clinicians, for sure, you're ruining families' experiences, you're tainting ABA. Like you genuinely are. Just because you want to be your own boss, just because you want to and like prove something in your name or whatever, like you genuinely have to pour into it if that's what you want to do. And it's hard. Like, ask other owners, like it's not easy, it's really hard. And I will say, like, I think I took an easier route, like, I have an easier route because I have a business partner that helps with one side of things and I help with the other side of things, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 28:17

But people have done it by themselves, like Keisha, like that's a hard, it's hard, like it's even hard when it's me and her. So I can't even imagine if I had to do it by myself. You know, like it's a hard thing, and I do genuinely believe if we're going to start requiring BCBAs to own organizations, there should be a coursework they have to complete to qualify.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

And I absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

You know what I mean? Like, you would have to really have to complete that to qualify to be an owner because you're impacting people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Right?

SPEAKER_04 28:49

Like you're you're you're playing such a big role in people's future and these kids' future and these these adults, like everyone, you're impacting them. And one bad leader literally could cost us the best clinician the field has ever seen. And all because we wanted to have a company in the name of being our own boss, you know, and then it is it's soft skills. Like I've heard the soft skills thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

I hear that a lot. Um, and you're right, I'm very much like operationally defined a soft skill because I I do feel, and I'm gonna get a lot of shit for this, but I do feel like there are people who have it and who don't. And it it that it is what it is. Like some people have it and some people don't, and you have to identify the people who have it.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean that's kind of that that is my exact hesitation with soft skills, because I feel like with that word itself, because I do feel like there's an aspect of it that we are talking about something that's fully definable and fully measurable. Um, there's some of us, and I I can include myself even though I'm infinitely charming, but some of us run rub people the wrong way. It doesn't matter what the fuck you say. So I don't think you can train that away. Yeah, I don't think there's any soft skill I could take. Now I can be aware of it and I can do all the other things to make you know that hey, I'm gonna when I say this thing that you just can't stand, that isn't past the threshold of being offensive or you just don't like it. Just bottom line, it's at that level. It's my responsibility to kind of smooth that out. Sometimes you can't, you know what I mean? But I think there are certain things, like for example, um, when building out a caseload, I've because I've seen companies fail at this miserably. They'll give someone a humongous region and then be mad when they're not seeing people at the appropriate proportion. And then maybe give them feedback about you're using too much telehealth. So this is now when you when you look at all the feedback they got across three months, it'll be like, hey, you've had all these clinical issues. Well, what are they? And when you go through them, it looks like they're a problem, but it's actually they're just responding to the feedback that I gave them. They were trying to drive from one place to the next because of the case law that I gave them. They couldn't make it in time, they knew that. So they switched to telehealth. So now they did hit their hours, but now this month they're not going in person. Well, then I give them feedback for that. Okay, so now they're back in person, but not that they're not hitting. Their hours are less. And then and then was my feedback. And I think a foundational problem exactly because you're making it seem like it's them. And it's very easy to miss. And sometimes some people are in a position where the level of measurement that they're doing, they they don't even know to look beyond it, to look past it, to have a conversation with their director to say that this is an inappropriate caseload that we gave to this person. So now we've given them an impossible task. I mean, I've seen the flip side of that, which is when someone just wants to get rid of you, these are the things that they kind of do. I was much more sensitive to that because to your point, it was losing good clinicians has always been my problem.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

It's like, how do we keep on doing that for people who are willing to take less because they're just helping people? Like, I've seen a lot of clinicians who are willing to take the lower pay, and then they turn around and only take the higher pay, but it's because of their experience. And I don't even think you were mentioning earlier about other companies, like, I don't think they're doing it maliciously. I think everyone's doing the best they can. Then they tell themselves, oh, I'm just looking at the data, yeah, but you don't understand how it's already been pre-processed in such a way that you're gonna miss the most important information, which it's actually your fault. But it's not their fault in the sense that they can fix it because they don't even know. So like we're just so fucked. I actually blame Isaac Newton. We don't have to get into it now, but this is why it's because we have that kind of thinking where we think if I tally it and I take a check mark and I put it in a checklist, this accounts for everything. And it just doesn't, not through time. Yeah, I can look at all my tasks, but it's very different to have those tasks through time. And I think like that's the part where when you have experience, you just have a because I've worked with people who couldn't even articulate to me what my issue was, but they understood it. They were just like, there's an issue, and I was protected when I would work with them. You know what I mean? Again, I think that's where I learned with you, is where you were actually articulating a lot of these issues where I was like, oh fuck, the machine shot problem. Like you solved for that already, uh, and where other people are still just kind of trying to figure figure that stuff out. So but anyway, all that to say, I think it's brilliant what you're saying that if you're gonna make a stupid ass requirement like that, because that is fucking stupid, respectfully, um, you need to give us the framework to make that happen successfully that doesn't add yet another layer, because all that's gonna do is what? Allow me to get paid more and people to get seen less. Yeah, I don't mind taking less per hour eventually.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Not right now.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah, not right now.

SPEAKER_04 33:34

Have you seen the gas prices?

SPEAKER_01 33:35

You know, yeah, so maybe after this war is done. Right. But but it's like it's like I don't mind like taking less rate because we're treating more. Yeah, I don't mind dealing in volume, which I think is kind of where we're going with rate cuts and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, anyway, at the end of the day, I think uh we do need to prepare the people for those kinds of requirements.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

Yes, and we do if we're gonna make that. If we're gonna make that. If we're gonna make that be a thing, I we do need to require them because at the end of the day, the problem, right? Like when we get to the root of it, is that there's just so many jobs to so many BCBAs. I think it was like four jobs to one BCBA are available or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Dang, dude.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

And it just keeps growing and it keeps getting worse, right? And now we have companies shutting down because they're getting audited, because they're doing these things, and like, so the problem's just the gap is getting wider. Like it doesn't matter, it's gonna keep getting wider, right? Like and so a problem too is that people see a good clinician and then think that equals a good leader or a good CEO, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

And that's not a true statement. Yeah, and I will I I will say for myself, like I was a BCBA, like an active, like actively being a BCBA for six months.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Really?

SPEAKER_04 34:46

I was in the field being a BCBA for six months before I became a lead BCBA, a clinical director, regional clinical director, executive clinical director.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

You were your focus was always team building, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:59

Which I didn't realize that was my strength, right? I thought, like, I'm a good clinician, like I can do this, you know, I passed the test, like I can do these things as a BCBA. Um, and in those six months, I had a great leader who taught me so many things. Like, we'll never deny her leadership and skill set that she taught me. Um and but people would look at that and would have never would have just been like, you've only worked as a BCBA for six months, you don't know anything.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Oh, writing on, yeah, would have wrote me off, disqualified me. I don't want to direct five years, it's always the thing.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

And I've met clinicians who've been BCBAs for 15 years, and I've never met someone so ignorant in my entire life, right? Like there's just some BCBAs where it's like you just don't know what you're talking about, or you don't know what you're doing, or you don't even care that you're harming and like you're just living in this world doing whatever you want because you can tell me that you have more knowledge because you've been a BCBA for 15 years. That's so and I've been a BCBA for six. The impact I've made in the six months that I was a BCBA compared to the impact you're making in the 15 years that you've been a shitty BCBA. That part. It doesn't even compare. That part. And it's not to toot my horn, it's the fact that like there are clinicians out there who are maybe they don't have the same experience, so you would write them off as not a great BCBA, but they can lead, they can run an organization. So that's why I say, like, if there was coursework on it, like it's not about you already have to be BCBA, right? But like it's not about passing or being clinically strong in that sense, it's about like how do I manage people? That's where that like OBM and like all of that kind of stuff comes in. Um, and then how do I understand systems? Because just because I know how to manage behavior doesn't mean I know how to manage systems. Brilliant, it's a huge shift, like completely different. And then when you have to manage the systems of an organization and the behavior of 250 employees, that is a skill set that most people do not have, nor are they ready to learn it. Um, and it has nothing to do with experience, it has to do with, like you said, like your your passion, your tenacity, like you all those things are what make you be that. And some people have it and some people don't. And I we're forcing, I think a lot of times also we force BCBAs to be leaders when like the BCBA role itself, I see as a leader role. I will always see it as a leader role. So like that's why I say in the curriculum, there should be leadership courses you need to pass in the curriculum.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

You're making me more granola, I buy in.

SPEAKER_04 37:28

But it's true because it's like you're leading people, whether you like it or not, if you're leading RBTs, and whether you're signing their contract or not, you're still signing, you're still leading them, you're still teaching them, right? You're leading families, whether you think you are or not, you are leading them, you are leading mid-tiers. If you have mid-tiers on your system, like there's people being led by you because you make the final decision. So whether you like it or not, you're a leader. And so if you're a BCB who doesn't want to be a leader, go independent.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

And stop ruining other people's experiences.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 38:01

If you're not gonna help them grow, yeah. If you also have people that don't want to grow, that's okay too. But grow them, and it's gonna sound funny, but like when I say like we grow up the ladder or you grow sideways and you grow with knowledge. So it's like make them to mastery on shit that they would never even experience, you know? Like teach them all that if they don't want to grow up, like you can still help someone grow, they just grow differently. And I think like we had conversations where I was like, Matthews, what do you want to do? What's your like what's your goal? And we had talked about like you doing your own thing. And it was like great. So our conversations, I don't I know you know the clinical shit. I don't need to sit here and talk about clinical with you. Like, that's not our conversation. Our conversation needs to be about like, what do you want to do and how do I help you get there? Like, what does that look like? What do you need to know? Sit in this room with me in this conversation, sit in this difficult conversation, manage that for me. Like, go take like those were the things that we talked about. It wasn't about like clinical because what who cares? Like, you know what you're talking about. If you pass the exam, you have the basic understanding of ABA, and I promise you guys ABA is not that hard. So it's like, if that's the case, if I can at least keep the eye and know that you're doing things ethically, I see progress, all of that's coming through, right? Then why do I need to have conversations about clinical with you? I don't need to. There's no need for that. But to help you grow it wasn't to help you grow in knowledge. You're smart as you're smarter than me. Like you read all the shit, like you're a whole, like, you know, like you philosopher, like you got all the things. We don't need to talk about that. I need to tell you about like, hey, this is what I learned as like an owner. This is what I learned as a CEO, and this is the knowledge I can share with you. That's how you prepare someone for that pipeline. Like, it's not as simple as like BT, mid-tier, BCBA, yeah, clinical director, owner. It's not it, maybe it used to be that simple.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Maybe that's why. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now things have changed.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

Yeah, it's completely different now because now people are like, I want five years to have someone a clinical director. Like, what experience to have? And it's like, I know people are gonna be upset, but like in my six months, I was managing six group homes. I was managing social skills, I was managing early internment. Like, there was multiple things I was managing and learning all at the same time. And in those six months, I got the experience that BCBs have never gotten in their 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Very fair.

SPEAKER_04 40:21

So there's like things that I was able to experience and get because I just was blessed in the role that I had. And I am a person who can like absorb that information and apply it quickly. That's just like a skill set I have. But it didn't discount me from being who I am or being able to be the CEO or whatever position I'm in now. Um, and which is what made me valuable because very quickly I I went into other rooms and I was like, I could tell you all the things you're doing wrong in the first 10 minutes. Tell me about your company. And like, and and that was just because it was like, hey, like I figured out how to make it work and I saw it work other places, and I figured out how to make things better. And that was something that was a skill set that I I think I had in me. Like I already had that kind of like leadership qualities and all those things. But there were people and situations that helped me grow that skills and people who believed in me and trusted me to let me lead them. And when I I think back on it, like my pathway is very that. Like I did go very BT to like mid-tier to like I very much followed that pathway. One thing I am learning though is like in my own organization is like identifying the people who actually want that pathway and then people who want different pathways and like helping them grow. Interesting. Because, like we said, like a strong clinician doesn't equal a strong CEO, and people want to grow, and maybe they're not fit to be a CEO, but I can teach you how to create your own program and curriculum and run that, or I can teach you how to do quality assurance, I can teach you how to do training, like and run that and take that and own that. Like I can teach you those other pieces so that the pipeline doesn't have to be so generic and the same thing over and over again. But it it does take a lot of the right people and the right seats to help someone get there, but like having the right leaders to ask the right questions, because if you're not asking someone like what do they want to do in five years, how would you know that they want to grow that way? Like, how would you know to shape them that way? And just because they're a great BT, like thank God it worked out for me. I was, I guess, a good BT because my supervisor was like, You should be a BCBA, but it was like what if I was a shitty BCBA? You know what I mean? Like, what if I was bad at what I did? But she really encouraged me to keep going and thank God I was like good at what I did. But just because I did good as a BT doesn't mean I'm gonna do good as a mid-tier, and just because I do good as a mid-tier doesn't mean I'm gonna do good as a BCBA. And just because you're a bomb BCBA, top notch, does not mean that you are ready to own a company. Tell them, nor should you, yeah, you know, like you really have to self-reflect. And I don't know that a lot of people are ready to do that. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 43:12

No, no, not at all. No, I mean, I think I think um, gosh, it ties into the whole conversation in the field where it was like uh we do more than just such and such care, which are conversations that I fucking hate to be a part of. Uh it drives me crazy because on the one hand, it's true, so then like apply it to your own organization. And if you can't figure that out, it means you're fucking failing. Like it means that you don't have the skill set to take it beyond where you were already successful. That's your multiple baseline. And bro, it ain't true. Like you don't have the skill, you haven't mastered it sufficiently to then apply it, apply it somewhere else. I think, I think that's uh that's okay. But with like the way you're talking about it, it's like our thing is so broad. It can be applied in a lot of different domains in a lot of different ways. But what it takes to do that is the humility to try and then fail.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Our thing is really about trial and error at the end of the day. Um if we come to every problem as if we have all of the answers, and if we treat every failure as if, well, you didn't implement the what I designed for you, if you only ever do it at that level, well, then it means you're always right. It means that people are always wrong. And it means that you have a grasp of reality, but it seems no one else has. So it's like either you're in direct contact with God and you are truly indeed in touch with the absolute, which is why you're incomprehensible, or you're wrong, which is why you're incomprehensible. But if you don't like let your guard down to allow yourself to feel that, so no, I I don't I don't think that's wrong. There's a lot of people who are brilliant clinically who couldn't teach another person to do the job. Right. And they shouldn't have that position where they're teaching others to be a next clinician. It's like you're actually doing them a disservice, like you're doing things that are detriment. And again, we we're not talking hypothetically, we know this because of the people who leave and the reasons why they leave. It's because their supervisors failed them, they didn't teach the things that they should have taught, and you know, right.

SPEAKER_04 45:21

And no one wants to take accountability. So, like in this pipeline, like there is the the like need to also take accountability. Um, but you really have to self-reflect. So, can you do that? And if you can't even do that as a BCBA or you can't do that as a mid-tier, you surely can't do that as a BCBA and an owner.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Um but a lot of things also come out of like trauma, right? So just because you did great as a BT and you did great as a mid-tier and did great as a BCBA, and then you had a bad experience, there's like this trauma um driven entrepreneurship where like I'm just gonna start a company because I'm gonna do it better than they did it. Crazy. I know what, you know, what not to do, which I think it builds a lot of companies, like 90% of the companies that exist that were, you know, not private equity, or at least started before they were private equity, were probably because trauma-driven, trauma-driven, right? And so sure we had a benefit, right? Because we probably got more ABA spread out to other places and like better ABA, like I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but we do have to self-reflect on like was this trauma that caused me to go and do this? And am I causing trauma to other people?

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 46:37

And so, like, that isn't a big deal, too. Because are you self-aware? Are you aware enough to recognize that I left someplace because they were treating people badly? And now that I've got a taste of the power, the money, whatever it is, am I treating people badly?

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Dang, yeah. Sometimes self-reflecting hurts.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Hurts. It does hurt, but it's like those are things you have to think about when you move in through this pipeline. Like once I move through this pipeline, that I feel like it is really built to push you that way because you can't move to the next step until you have the previous step. So it is built to push you through to kind of lead that way. Um, but it it it really fails at moving you from BCB 8 to the next step. I really think it does like BCB 8 a clinical director, and then I I think you get into the realm of clinical director and you either make it or it breaks you. You it's kind of one or the other. Um, but you like you said, then you get the exposure to like what does it actually cost to keep the doors open and the lights on? What does it actually cost for workers' comp and insurance? What am I actually getting paid? Just because on a piece of paper it says we build out $200,000 this week. Did you get paid $200,000? Well, no, we don't get paid $200,000. We get paid X amount. Okay. And then when do you get paid that X amount? Oh, we don't get paid that X amount for 30, 45 days.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

That'll literally kill you. Right. That'll end up.

SPEAKER_04 48:05

And then it's like, oh, okay. And then what happened? And then, oh, don't even worry about it because 60% of that goes to keep the the locations open, keeps the lights on, it keeps the snacks in the refrigerator, right? Like it it has a bunch of other things, which is a whole nother conversation we can go into, but you don't get that information until you're sitting at that table. Um, and then when you sit at that table is really when you get to decide, like, is this what I want to do or not want to do? But I feel like by then it's almost too late.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yeah, you just gotta keep following.

SPEAKER_04 48:35

Now it's like, well, what do I do with my career? Now I already have a BCBA and I'm a clinical director. Where do I go? And there's tons of things we can do. But if you're following just the the general pipeline, it's it's too late because you're already sitting in the rooms, you're already in the discussions, you're already in that role, and no one is telling you, you know, like, hey, do better. Because I think we're also really afraid to lose BCBAs. Not me, but very true.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Very, very true. Not me.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

But you know, like it's a true thing. Like, people are afraid to lose BCBAs. Yeah, so they allow them to be mediocre, yeah, and then shit hits the fan, and then it has now caused trauma to other people, and now the owner's trying to sort things out and figure it out, and they're blaming a BCBA, and there's no one to blame but yourself because extreme ownership. At what point did I not call someone out for their mediocre behavior? At what point did I not train them to be a better leader? At what point did I not say, hey, we need to talk about your soft skills or whatever? But like those are the things that are missing, they're just completely missing in ABA, and then you don't get them until you're literally it's knocking at your door.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Yeah, you're you're you're getting burned by it, and that's how you're learning from it.

SPEAKER_04 49:53

Right. And then and that's when you learn, right? But but then there's only so many times that that's where collateral damage comes in, right? Like there's people that are doing things that end up hurting people that are harmful and hurtful, and it was never their intention, yeah, and they're focused on a different project or a different like thing that they want to accomplish, not realizing that they're harming others. And their side of the story is that they're the hero because they genuinely believe in what they're doing, right? We all do our mission, our values, like we we really have to sit and reflect about like what ABA could do better, where we could be better. I have to hear parents' conversations and and people's conversations about what ABA did to them and the negativity, like you really need to hear those things. But if you're not in the place to accept it, it doesn't matter. And you're hurting others and they're just collateral damage into you achieving your mission. But you really have to look at like and it's a thing when you become a business owner, is like, I gotta what's the big picture? And sometimes like people are gonna get hurt, like that's the reality of it. Um but really being aware of like hurting the clinician, because I think that's the part that's like the hardest is as a BCBA or as the owner, is like I try not to say no all the time, right? Like, I want to hear what everyone wants to say, I want to know how to you know help them get where they but sometimes the answer is just no, and we can't have a discussion, and there's information that I can't share, and I just have to make the decision that's going to hurt the least amount of people. Someone's gonna get hurt, yeah, but who's getting the least amount of people that are gonna be hurt or harmed or whatever it is. Um, but those are all skill sets and decisions that like I learned when I became a clinical director, and I think about the people that I probably hurt or harmed when I was in that role because I didn't know better. Like, those are the things that keep me up at night.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Gosh, that's so that's profound.

SPEAKER_04 51:45

Because you you really have to like think about like when I was learning, because we talked about leadership being a journey and like a growth, you know, and like when I think back to like when I first became a clinical director and I was imitating the leader that I had in front of me, who did I hurt and how like what is their story? Like, are they still clinicians? Do they go and tell people about like this really crappy leader I had because she was harmful or she was mean or whatever it was, or she didn't hear me, or I didn't make people feel hurt. And those are the things that like I think about. Now, can I make everyone happy? No, I know that. Um, and at this point in my leadership, I also like that doesn't keep me up at night. It's the early parts of my leadership where I could have done better. But because I was just imitating what I thought was a leader or what I saw, I was hurting people instead of taking accountability and self-reflecting and being like, How can I do better? But I I genuinely couldn't have self self-reflected or done those things until I experienced harming someone, right? Like I couldn't have, I wouldn't have known, I couldn't have. But I I do think if we changed the curriculum or if we prepared people at a mid-tier or in their ABA curriculum or those kinds of things for leadership and like the OBM pathway and like how to manage culture and how to manage people and finances and those things, there would be less trauma to clinicians by others because they would have some sense of like what they're doing right and wrong. But I mean, we would have to really sit down as a community and say, what needs to be taught? What are these soft skills that we're talking about? And what are the soft skills that are missing and how do we put them into the curriculum? Um, a lot of times we're putting those soft skills into CEUs, but they're not getting to enough people to make the change that we really want to see.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Sure, sure. Yeah, they're not even being s systematic, they're not taught systematically enough to even be able to like evaluate the effect that they're having or the change in people's perspective. I think similar to like once you teach people how to do function-based interventions versus simply reacting to topography, everything changes because now you end up with things that look different that are actually the same.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Or things that look the same that are actually very different, and we can help like we can determine it by function. I feel like when it comes to the leadership stuff, there must be some other higher order thing that organizes the stuff so we can talk about something like a function or something that's just not in the parts. It's just something that they can use to because yeah, I I I it's sad. I think there's a lot of people in our field who kind of talk about feeling dejected or or there's just so much bad, and maybe it's not that much. Like maybe, or I mean, who the fuck am I to say? But you know, it's obviously not that much, but it's above a threshold, like it it's far higher than what you would expect if it was just people acting randomly and sometimes being shitty. Yeah, you know, like what is forcing the shittiness when it's kind of avoidable. We know it can be because then we change it once we start with our trauma-driven development. Yeah, fire quote, by the way. That's going on Twitter for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_04 54:53

You know, trauma, trauma-driven entrepreneurship.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

Yeah, like maybe escape behaviors aren't so bad.

SPEAKER_04 55:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Like maybe that's maybe escape behaviors is how you reach the moon. Maybe that's how you get across the stars. Right. You gotta fucking leave someplace.

SPEAKER_04 55:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

I feel that. I feel that.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Because I I I do um you do, you have to leave, right? There's like a point where you're like, I have to go and I have to escape this setting that I'm in. And and but then when you go to do better, like don't create a space. Yeah, so escape.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

Don't go to the moon and then start the same stupid bullshit again. Yeah, don't be doing all that.

SPEAKER_04 55:28

But you know, I I do think like a better way to approach it is to teach people at the lowest level, whatever the startings, whatever you want to call it. But when you meet with a BT and you're you're working with beaver technicians or RBTs, like, are we still having the same conversations? Like, are we still saying, like, hey, how do you want to grow? Where do you want to grow? What do you want to do? Whether it's here or somewhere else, that's a big thing that I don't know that organizations do or don't have the manpower to do, right? Because that's that's admin time.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Exactly. Yeah. When does it be like a lot of directors will be like, when, Chelsea? When do I have time to do it?

SPEAKER_04 56:08

Listen, I still do it.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

That's also fair. Maybe that's not the best question to ask you.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

But it is a thing, right? Like, when do those things exist? Sometimes you don't have the manpower. I don't do it at the BT level. I don't have the manpower to do it. But my HR team does like so. My HR team does have like a team member that calls them and does a 30, 60, 90 day check-in. We get feedback in. We will then go and address their feedback, right? There's conversations about are you interested in growing? What does growth look like for you? What do you want to do? Like, how do you get better? Right. And this is a newer concept. Like, don't think I I rolled this out and we're just fabulous, right? Like, this is a newer thing we've rolled out, but it's literally changed the way we interact with our BTs. Like, it's changed the way we address, because it's a a third party who's not your clinician. You could say whatever you want to them, right? Um, God. And she's on our HR team operations, but like you could tell her whatever, and and she don't know, right? She's not a clinician, so she's like, they said something about ABC data. Like, I don't know. They I'm just repeating what they say. But it's given us the space to be like, hey, this is the gap to the clinicians, and then the clinicians can go in and be like, Oh, you just needed me to teach you ABC data again in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_04 57:22

Got it. And we can go in so nonchalant and just go and fill the gap for them so that they feel heard, supported, and seen. And we also had a discussion on like who are how are you growing? Where do you want to grow? Who are you growing with? Like, what does that look like for you? And that's the same thing I have with all of the clinical leadership team, right? So, like every supervisor gets a 30, 60, 90, every BCBA gets a 30, 60, 90 day check-in. Like, and then even after that, if we do our first 30, 60, 90 days check-in, you still get your annual check-ins. And then it's like, even then, after the 90 days, if you're like, I still don't know what I want to do, great, I'll put something on my calendar another 90 days so we can talk again. Sure. Because we're gonna have a discussion. And it you don't have to grow up a ladder, but you do need to grow in some other way, whether it's teaching you time management so that you can spend time with your family, whether it is teaching you to say no because you always say yes, right? Like, whether it's teaching you like whatever the skill set is, like we're gonna teach you so you just grow however you grow. You don't have to grow and be the tallest beanstalk, but you can grow across other gardens, like you can grow and share that information other places and like do better. But are people having the conversations or have they created the space to even have those discussions? Like just eating it to hire someone that is the manpower to do that. Like that might change an organization, like that might change a clinician's life. Like a BT was like, I never wanted to do this, kids have boogers gross, and then they talk to someone and then they're like, Oh, you mean like I can do this at this level? Oh, you mean I can like create this at this level? And then you create a BCBA who's able to go and manage a whole group home, sure, working with adults because that's their passion. But as an organization, like we have to be okay with eating that because we are the ones creating the pipeline. We design it, we create it. How do we make it better? Like, I can't sit here and complain to you about the pipeline if I don't have a plan on how to fix the pipeline. But that is up to us to make that decision, and I don't know that we're ready to make the decision because it's become so about like what can we afford? How are we billing? Like, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Which obviously is not enough. Otherwise, you know, it's funny because in ABA, we always go from direct intervention to indirect intervention. So if I can't reinforce the problem behavior way by giving you the alternative, well, then I'm gonna start with the ecological arrangements and all and all that kind of thing. It goes from direct reinforc like direct consequences to let me just modify the environment to X, Y, or Z. And I feel like that those are the things that we're having to figure out how to change. What's weird about when you do that is that like possibilities grow exponentially.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

It's no longer we got four possible outcomes. No, it's like four times eight times 26.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:17

Because everybody's a part of the discussion. Everyone has their own experiences, their their brain. Like, and if you have those discussions, like it really opens the door. Like when we were talking about this, like I'd never expected to have all the programs that we have. Like, did I always think I was gonna have EIBI? Like, no. Did I think I was gonna have social skills? No. I was just doing what I was comfortable with one to one ABA. Did I have experience and all those other things? Sure. But I was like, my my picture in my head wasn't that big. And then I met other people who were like, I really like this thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

Oh, and then it was like, oh, they would develop and grow it through that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:53

And I was like, well, why can't you have ownership of that and you create it and you develop it? And like, this is my vision, this is the mission. How does that align with that? And once it aligned, I let them do their thing. Like, and they blossomed and grew it out. And then it was like, okay, well, who can we bring into that who also loves it? And they can blossom and grow it out. And whether they stay here or they take it elsewhere, it's like the impact is so big because what I I do what I do because of the impact, not because of the money it makes me or because of I want my name to be known. Like you'll a lot of times I won't even tell people was my idea, like I'm always like, that was their idea, like that was their idea, like you did it, not me. I didn't do it, right? Like because I didn't do it, I genuinely did not do it. They did it. Like I just said that would be really cool to have EIBI. And then they were like, Oh my god, I really want to do that. That's what I love and so passionate about. And I just like let them cook, you know what I mean? Like, and they did amazing things, and they've done it at different levels, they didn't have to be BCBAs to do that. They did it at mid-tiers.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:56

They're they're doing it as lead BTs, but it's like creating clinicians for the future so that if they're falling into this pipeline that we have just naturally designed and we're pushing them through, at least they're going with the skills. We're not just like pushing them through to push them through. Like, did we set them up for success? And maybe I can't go and change the whole curriculum and the board, and I could do all of that, but I can't do it tomorrow. But what I can do tomorrow is have a conversation with someone who's passionate about it and then put them in the rooms with the right people. But like, that's up to me to do as an organizational leader. And are we all doing that? Because at the end of the day, the power is in our hands, right? Like, if we're talking about we want to have like quality and we want to change all these things, like if we all just sat in a room together and figured out how to get along, ouch, the pipeline would be different if we stopped stroking our own egos and cared about other people instead of ourselves and our name plastered everywhere, or just hearing me because you want to, I want to be at every conference so that you could say my name, like weird energy. Like just work together because the things we could accomplish together in this pipeline that is designed to take a B from a BT to at least a clinical director.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:12

It's literally created that way. Like, if we're not gonna take that pipeline seriously, like that's why private equity took over.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

I mean, low-key, those are the exact things that they pay attention to, right? Yeah, that's why they throw money at a problem because it's an indirect, it's an indirect solution, which surprise, surprise, solves it up to a certain point. Right. Like the money does solve certain key issues for people. Uh yeah, dude. You know, I've never felt more empowered, and I hate to say it for real though, because like with the recent talk when people are saying poo, like the rate of passing per test, for me again, when I heard that, I'm not it, I'm not like You're not losing. I'm not because we're even though the rate is dropping, the volume of actual test takers is increasing. So you know, like it's gonna it's gonna balance itself out somehow. But I think the first question that you put into my mind was, well, how do we adapt to that? And it never occurred to me to do that. So I think it's at that point that I started taking the dissemination stuff a little bit more serious. Where it was like, you know what, let me be more systematic. Because I I enjoy just shooting the shit with my friends about whatever I'm coming across. Because it's all things that we all can like engage with and deal with and think about. I'm not thinking about these things by myself, even if I go and read it. I'm always thinking about it with people, through people, having things explained to me, even because I'm not able to capture all of it. Um I think we need something for like all the problems that we are, that we are identifying. And I for myself, that's when I started taking seriously. Okay, what do you need from me? Like, like for the kind of, you know, I would always make fun of at the conferences whenever someone shows their references and people are like, Oh, I love references. Like, honestly, at the end of the day, fuck your references. If I'm reading your references, it's because I'm about to tell you to go fuck yourself. Because I'm about to tell you what your references have to say now because I'm lit, I'm livid now.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

Um, but if that's what it takes for me to communicate these ideas to you to kind of make the case that, hey, I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. I'll I'll I'll give you the list then. You know what I mean? If that's what you want, you want the presentation? I can absolutely do the presentation. Here's the papers that we're pulling from, here's the things that we're interpreting, here's how it got applied, here's our data. It may not be completely valid in the sense that it's not structurally valid, but I'm fucking I'm telling you, I'm not lying. Yeah. And I know I'm fucking right because I'm getting paid to do it. So it's like it's a hard, it's a hard sell. I understand why someone wouldn't want to accept it. But like I said, it empowered me to kind of approach that in a different way. Um because how else are we gonna take it to the next level? I'm already impressed with a lot of. The newer clinicians because I think the way that the task list got taught, or maybe the concepts that they're getting exposed to, they're different, they're a different breed, which and it's great. I agree. I was not that smart. It really is at a higher level. Yeah, there's a lot of people who come in talking about stimulus equivalence and act and RFT and be talking to me and I'd be like, bro, whatever you said.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I genuinely don't remember. So I'd be like, mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah. That sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

Yeah, no, they're really coming in prepared. So it's like, so now we're getting a more enthusiastic, more prepared, more educated person, and we're still blowing it. It's like my concern isn't necessarily passing or not passing the test, it's churn. How many people are we losing that are not coming back? It's a well-paying job. You know, the hours lend themselves to a lot. You can align yourself with schools. Like, there's all these benefits and all these things that people are saying that they want, but we know firsthand where the failure is. Like the failure is always in leadership. 99% of the time. It's not a structural problem. They're not quitting because cancellations all the time. No, they're quitting because you're an asshole. You treat people like shit. You don't know how to give the feedback. You throw a fucking tantrum if they give you any pushback, if they disagree with something, if they tell you that it's actually your fault, and they're right, you're gonna get them for something else later. You're gonna lose those people eventually. It's because especially these young kids. I mean, you know, if we think we're primed towards socialism and the movements and all this, it's like these kids were born during the 2008 recession. We adopted the darkness. We had the 90s, we drank the Mondo juice, we wrote our rollerblades, and then we lost our backyard pools. You know, these they never had shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

These are piranhas raised in a desert who learned to grow legs. They are now walking. So, you know, it's like that's who you're competing against. No, dude, we have to, we have to like answer the call. So, anyway, all that to say, I apologize for lecturing about this shit, but like genuinely, in the middle of this conversation, I ended up like empowered. Like, damn, maybe we gotta turn up the heat on like that disseminating part. And I get, I mean, in a way, that is exactly what we're doing. Yeah, what I mean, but yeah, even then I didn't take it serious enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:11

Well, I feel like we we I don't we don't take it seriously enough. Like we be fucking around on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

I'm like, yo, I mean you're right. We need to teach people dog. What the hell? I'm over here like people need to be taught. Yeah, teach them. They're assholes. Come on, yeah, you know, nah, y'all gotta solve that problem, dude. I'm I'm I'm not teaching recluse. Yeah, I live in the desert, dog.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:30

I just I just told you. I just finished talking about it. Yeah, we just we we live in this pipeline. We're literally outcomes from the the pipeline. So, like, how do we make it better and how do we change it? And you're right, these there's these are different clinicians, and it's beautiful, like yeah, for sure, beautiful to see. Like, even like the people that I'm I'm looking at, like where I'm like, dang, dude, like you're brave enough to go and do your whole your whole TikTok is ABA conversations, right? Like that's funny, that's crazy. Like, I would love to like have these conversations, but I just don't have that in me to like have those types of conversations and like go on TikTok and like I don't think I could handle the like repercussions of that, right? Like, I was already nervous when we did this podcast, like yeah, so it's like I don't know that I can handle the repercussions. That's why I was like, I'm only doing it because Matthews will talk shit for me, but like I I'm not doing this independently, you know. But yeah, they have literally started conversations where I'm like, yeah, like I should do better. I need to do better, I need to be aware. Like, didn't realize I was doing that. Let me change that, or hey, that's a great idea. Let me see how that fits in my organization, in my system. And it it's up to us to really like create people to grow in the pipeline or be good in the pipeline at the very beginning, and we're not doing that. We do it when it's too late. It's like too late to make a decision, it's too late because we push them into passing the test because we need so many BCBAs, but like, did we stop at the BT and mid-tier level to really see if this is what they want to do, if this is where they want to go? And there's like a shared pool of knowledge, and then we're too busy sitting here hoarding information to ourselves. Like fascinating. Just tell someone your idea. Yeah, because at the end of the day, if you don't know how to execute my idea, it doesn't matter. It does not matter if you have my whole playbook, it doesn't matter if you don't know how to execute it. Like it doesn't, and that's internal and external. If my team doesn't know how to execute my playbook, failed. Like that doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:38

Right? Like our there's no clarity, like we've already failed, I already set them up for failure, and now this BT that came into the field that had no clue what ABA is, is like this is a shit show, and I'm leaving. And that could have been one of the best BCBAs that came up with a whole new curriculum that changes the field.

unknown 1:10:52

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

But like we don't think that way. We just think of people as they're just a number, that's just money, another BCB life, turnover rates, whatever. And it's like those things need to be taken seriously, and we should be having discussions at the very beginning about is this where you want to be? Is this how you want to grow? What does that look like? And being okay when someone doesn't want to grow in the field, being okay when they don't want to have you as their mentor. That's okay. Like some people don't need you as their mentor, or it's time to let go. You've mentioned previously, like sometimes it's time to let go of your mentee. Like they have now surpassed you, they're doing a different thing, they need a different type of experience or knowledge. It's okay to let them go and be great. It doesn't make you less great. Sure. It makes you greater.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:39

Yeah, you raise someone to the level that they can go out independently. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:43

So it's like when you let someone go and do their own thing, and then I see them be successful, like, and it's not that I need someone to tell me I'm great, it's just the fact that like I am proud and I'm honored and humbled that I gotta be a part of the journey, and that person is doing these amazing things. But like some people can't think that way and can't, and then you're you're fucking up the pipeline.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're cutting somebody off that could have been gone farther, but you can't check your own reactions and it's causing that. We're clogging it up.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:13

Just can't. Okay, their own ego gets in the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:16

And that's how you get trauma.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Trauma, trauma-driven development.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:21

Dude, my homie Michael is gonna have a field day with that. Cause yeah. Trauma-driven development.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:28

That's how thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:29

Yeah, TDD. They got that TD. Like, oh, he got that TDD.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:35

Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

Tell me about your company again. Oh god.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:37

Where'd you wake up before this? Oh. Who was your who was your boss? Oh, got it. I get it. You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:45

Just work through it, bro. Ten years at a time, you know? It's you know, it takes time.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:52

But you know, I don't know. That's that's what I feel. The pipeline is there and it's made for us, but it doesn't prepare us for it. I don't think anyone's really prepared for that growth.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

Yeah, I officially buy in, man. I'm kind of disappointed that I changed my opinion on that. I thought people were just brats.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:10

You were like, no, they totally are set up for success.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

Yeah, I was like, how hard is it?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:15

You're set up for success to a point, right? I will say, like, probably BT mid tier to BCBA, like, school sets them up for that, and the experience sets them up for that. But there is a a piece in the pipeline that we're just no, we literally cut the pipeline and took a slice out of it, and then we're like, keep going, yeah, and wondering why people keep failing.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

Yeah. I know I I think you're right. I mean, even even because I know we're not necessarily like publicly administrated, let's say, like a school is, but um, there are certain administrators that have to get an additional kind of degree in order to manage people in a certain kind of way. I I think we have room for that. I even think we have the structure. I don't think CEUs are gonna cut it. I think we need something more formal, like a certificate or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:59

Yeah, I do think it should be its own coursework.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Yeah, yeah. Similar to how our like our coursework used to be coursework. You didn't have to have the degree as well. You can get your degree and whatever, take these, take this coursework. And but I I I feel like it's so crazy how we have to take a step back in order to continue the growth that that we want. Because I think people nailed it. I think we're gonna start expanding beyond our traditional roles, not traditional by definition, but just what we've traditionally done. I think that is coming. I think that's why people kind of express themselves in that way. Oh, we should be able to do more. They say that because they've tried it and then they fail. Yeah, they fail at it. It it it like it it kind of hurts. I don't think there's a lot of people who do a lot of ABA that I don't think could like become a a trainer, like a personal trainer. They could approach it the same way, it's just a shaping. You're dealing with behavioral change, you're dealing with managing habits and an a scene strategies and all that, but like go do it. And so it's like you can't do it with your own organization as an as a leader, you can't do it with dieting, you can't you can't teach people how to exercise with it. It's like what other places are we asking? Because everyone's talking about this OBM and all these certificates and all this kind of stuff, but I'm still not seeing the differences that we want to see. Yeah. We're like we're preparing people to a high level for for for something. Um, but yeah, no, I I uh I feel that I feel that completely.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:28

He buys in, guys. I did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:31

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:32

He's empowered, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:34

For real. Empowered? Sick, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:38

Yeah, I think I did good for this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:42

I know, no, I'm sold. I'm sold on it. I guess I got a lot of writing to do for the next question.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

I'm excited for you to come and tell me all your theories. Okay, so I read this, and this is a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:51

It's all fun and games now. Yeah, yeah. It's about to get deep.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:55

You're gonna send me a message at 3 a.m. You're like, so frizzy hair. I read this, read this thing, and this is what's happening, and it's called this theory, and this is how we do it, and this is how we change it. This is where we're at now, you know, but it is up to us to do it, so might as well be me and you.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:11

Hey, I'm with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:12

We'll figure it out, and then I'm gonna do the CEUs, and then I don't wanna hear shit from nobody. I don't want to hear it from nobody.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:21

That part.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:22

Because now we have CEUs for you guys, and then we're just gonna change the whole just all these things. We're gonna completely change ABA.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

It has to happen. Someone's gotta do it. We gotta change it back. We gotta call it behaviorism again. Oh, I don't like the acronym. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Let me stop. Let me stop while I'm ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:39

Dang. Gosh darn. He's like, let me just change it all.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:42

Yeah, let's just change the name back because we're trying to go towards never mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:45

You're gonna cause this.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

Another episode. Another episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:47

Right. That's a whole different episode. All right. Well, I think that's it for today. Talking about the BT to CEO pipeline. You guys let us know what you think. Tell Matthews on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

Yeah, definitely interested in all y'all's takes. So please follow up. Matthews will fight with you. You know how to fight me. Yeah, please disagree.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:07

And if you leave a comment to me, I'm just gonna tag Matthews. I'm just gonna redirect you. I'm like, and Matthews will handle this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

I'm the chatterbox. That's late.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:16

He can he can navigate you through. Um, if you're the person who thinks that we don't know what we're talking about because we haven't been BCBAs long enough. What did she say?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

Oh my gosh, I forgot home girl.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:27

We don't know what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

Obviously, we can't do simple math.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:30

Oh, we can't do simple math.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:31

It's like, then teach me. Why you gotta insult me? Right, you could have just told me two plus two equals four. That part, yeah. I'm gonna learn.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:37

Not slow and ignorant, but what do I know, guys? But, anyways, that's it for today. Thanks you for everyone for listening, and we'll catch you next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

Catch you next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:50

Bye.